Announcer:
Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast presented by the National Federation of the Blind, the transformative membership and advocacy organization of blind Americans. Live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono:
Hello and welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast. I'm your host, Melissa Riccobono, and we have another excellent host here, and he is also here. And who are you other excellent hosts?
Anil Lewis:
I'm the co-host and my name Anil Lewis. Happy to be here with Melissa Riccobono with our Federation family and friends.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yes, happy spring-ish.
Anil Lewis:
Um, no.
Melissa Riccobono:
No?
Anil Lewis:
No, pollen is crazy.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh unhappy spring. Oh, I'm sorry.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, allergies are killing me.
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, I'm in Wisconsin and it was actually, it didn't stick, but the snow was blowing around on Monday and I thought, this is ridiculous. This is why I don't live in Wisconsin anymore (laughs).
Anil Lewis:
I believe that if you want snow, it should not be delivered to you. You should go visit it.
Melissa Riccobono:
That's pretty fair. All right, well, we have a wonderful podcast and the topic is all about travel and we have some good panelists to speak about this topic. And our first panelist is the first vice president of the National Federation of the Blind. She's also the chairman of the Board of the National Federation of the Blind. She's the president of the National Federation of the Blind of Louisiana. And if all that weren't enough, she is the director of the Louisiana Center for the Blind. And of course I'm talking about Pam Allen. How are you Pam?
Pam Allen:
Hey everybody, it's great to be here. I'm great. How are you?
Melissa Riccobono:
Doing great. Well, I'm doing great. Poor Anil seems like he's struggling a bit. Yeah,
Anil Lewis:
I can do a Zyrtec commercial though. No, I'm good (Pam laughs) as long as I'm sure I take medicated. I'm good.
Melissa Riccobono:
Okay (Pam and Melissa laugh).
Anil Lewis:
Thanks for joining us, Pam.
Pam Allen:
Thanks for the invitation. It's great to be with you.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, so we're talking about travel, and I have to admit, I was blind maybe twenty years before I found out about the National Federation of the Blind Training Centers, and I went to LCB one year after. And you would think that at that particular point I was pretty good, but I learned so much in the time that I was there that made me such a more independent, confident, safe traveler.
That was amazing. And we wish that more and more people were exposed to our methodology around that training. So can you tell us or our listeners really about...Well, LCB in general I think would be helpful, but then if we focus in on travel specifically, that would be nice.
Pam Allen:
Yeah, and I can definitely relate to that. I have been blind since I was a baby, but I did not have consistent cane travel. Growing up it was pretty intermittent and I definitely did not know a lot of positive blind role models who were cane travelers and confident travelers. And so when I found the NFB and I learned about the Louisiana Center for the Blind, I definitely also gained a whole new understanding of confidence and travel. So the Louisiana Center for the Blind is one of our NFB training centers.
We also have the Colorado Center for the Blind and the Minnesota Center for the Blind and our training centers were started by blind people because of the NFB and because of our philosophy about blindness and recognizing that blindness is just a characteristic and that it doesn't hold us back from pursuing our dreams. And in our training centers, this is what I experienced in Louisiana, and I know you've had that same experience and many of our listeners really being immersed in an environment where you can build skills of blindness demonstrated by confident blind role models, really using non-visual skills and gain the confidence that we need to be able to travel in familiar and unfamiliar settings, really have the tools and the techniques that we need to be independent.
Melissa Riccobono:
Can we talk a little bit more about that? Because when I was a kid, I also was taught in a very quote unquote traditional way, at the time. My cane reached maybe about to my sternum. It was an aluminum cane. It was heavy. I wasn't really encouraged. In fact, I'm here in Wisconsin doing some cleaning out of papers and things with my mom to figure out what we want to keep, what we can just throw away.
And we were reading one about from my kindergarten evaluation, and let's just be clear, I was a totally blind kid. And the evaluator said, well, she moves around so well, she's a good trailer. We gave her a cane because her sister has one, so she wants one, but she really only needs to use it once in a very great while and she doesn't need to be evaluated again for another year.
And that was just the thinking at the time. And once I got my cane, it was very much a route we worked on. Usually I only had O&M in the summer. Eventually it got better, but when I was first learning to travel, it was only in the summer and it was a route. So one summer I worked on the route to my friend's house. The next summer I worked on the route to our local food store. The third summer I worked on a route to a fast food restaurant, which was actually right next to the grocery store. But I never was really taught about, well two things, it was you did the route, that was how you did it.
They never talked about, well, there's another way to do it. You can walk on the other side of the street. Here's how the streets connect. And we did talk about the directions and the streets and things, but it was never really talked about that there were other ways to get from A to B. And the second thing was if I got lost, most of the time the instructor sort of got me back on track and I always felt bad or like I had done something wrong when I got lost.
And I felt like sighted people never got lost and sighted people never made mistakes and sighted people never veered when they crossed the street. And if I veered just even a tiny bit, that was this horrible, horrible thing. And that's not how we go about teaching travel at our centers. What is our method and how does that differ and how does that give people more confidence in just a different, I think much better experience.
Pam Allen:
Yeah, and I think you and I have talked before, Melissa, we had a lot of similar experiences growing up. A couple points that I want to mention. Number one, we use long canes at our training centers. And this was very new when I remember when I first came to training in Louisiana and I had a cane that was several inches taller than the cane that I had been used to. Generally the cane is somewhere between your chin and your nose in that area.
So also at our training centers, we use non collapsing canes. We recognize there are lots of different choices for canes, but when someone is in training, we really focus on using a non collapsible cane with a metal tip because it provides really great feedback, good information that you're getting through your cane. And also a long cane is really sturdy and it can detect things, but also importantly, it's visible.
So I know growing up, even though I am also totally blind, I did not want to be seen with a cane. Not that everyone didn't know that I was blind because they did, but I thought mistakenly that the cane was not a good thing. I didn't see it as a symbol of freedom and independence. And so I was always really quick to hide my cane or not have it at all. And so having a long cane really helps an individual, and I can relate to this, be comfortable being identified as a blind person and recognizing that a cane really is a tool to independence and freedom.
And so we also at our training centers use learning shades, which for many podcast listeners will know, but some may not, that most legally blind people have some usable vision. So at our training centers, we use learning shades which block out the usable vision so that an individual can really focus on trusting the information given by their other senses. And then when their learning shades are off, they can combine all the information together and make the best choice about what's most efficient and safe and the best option.
Anil Lewis:
The interesting thing that I found out is when I started wearing the learning shades is the little bit of vision that I did have was more of a distraction than helped. It really had me making bad travel decisions. And when I started taking on the non-visual access skills, I was a much better traveler.
Pam Allen:
Exactly at first, people have a lot of questions about that, but like you said Anil, they realize it's actually a relief in a way, a real confidence builder to recognize that it doesn't matter what the lighting conditions are, it doesn't matter if it's nighttime or daytime, when their vision might change, whatever they have the skills that they need. And I agree with you, I can remember we would always learn the root to our friend, forget it if you wanted to go to your other friend's house because you didn't know the way to that friend's house, so you were stuck.
Anil Lewis:
You were allowed the one friend.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yep, that's right. You had one friend and that was (Melissa laughs)... You could get there and back (Melissa and Pam laugh).
Pam Allen:
That's right.
Melissa Riccobono:
And I mean unfortunately what happened to me is I got lost a couple times going trying to go to that friend's by myself, and I completely lost confidence and never used that route after the summer and...
Pam Allen:
Exactly.
Melissa Riccobono:
It was very sad.
Pam Allen:
Which is the opposite of what you want as a traveler. And so...
Melissa Riccobono:
Correct.
Pam Allen:
In our training centers, we use structured discovery training methodology, which really in a nutshell, it's just learning how to problem solve. That they're to really pay attention to your environment to realize that we can figure things out, we can use cardinal directions, we can use environmental cues, we can use all kinds of things that are happening around us to problem solve.
And so if I want to go to my friend's house, but on the way I really want to stop and get some coffee for both of us, I can take a little detour to the coffee shop because I have a sense, I have a mental map in my mind about where things are and how they relate to each other, and that I have the problem solving skills to figure that out.
Or if my friend moves and I want to visit them, I've never been there before. I can take the knowledge that I have and have confidence on myself to figure it out and use those tools. And I know Melissa, the thing about getting lost, that was always such a big fear, but realize when you have good problem solving skills, you can work your way out of that.
Anil Lewis:
And going somewhere new that you've never gone before was the real powerful piece for me...
Pam Allen:
Major.
Anil Lewis:
Because you can go to places that you're familiar with and you developed your confidence, but just picking a place and going was really kind of scary. But when I first started, you had the expectation to do what's called a drop route. That's where you get driven around to get confused around where you are and the instructors drop you off at a place you've never been before. You have to find your way back to the center.
So of course when I first got there, I'm like, no, we're not going to do that. But with the progressive training and the skills acquisition throughout the whole process, by the time it came my turn to do a drop route, I was like, bring it on. And it was just such a wonderful liberating feeling to not be afraid and recognize that you had the skill to problem solve and the mental map. And just go to where you've never been before and be able to make your way.
Pam Allen:
And I think too, that goes to the point that in our lifetimes, we are probably going to live in several different cities. We are going to travel for work or for leisure in lots of different places. And so really having that confidence in yourself to recognize that you have the tools to get the information that you need and a way to problem solve if something comes up unexpectedly or you want to go try something new. And I want to comment real quickly too on using a longer cane. At first it felt very strange to me. It felt like I had this different because I had always used a shorter cane.
Melissa Riccobono:
It's a big, long arm.
Pam Allen:
Exactly (Melissa,Pam and Anil laugh).
Melissa Riccobono:
But it was light. Oh my gosh.
Pam Allen:
So much lighter.
Melissa Riccobono:
Even though it was long, it was so much lighter. I thought...
Pam Allen:
So much lighter, yes.
Melissa Riccobono:
Maybe there's something to this.
Pam Allen:
It's so much lighter and because it's made out of fiberglass, so it's a lot lighter. But also because I could find things, I had more reaction time so I could walk more quickly and confidently, it really helped me increase my walking speed as I gained confidence. And if it was in a crowded situation, if I was going to a festival or a concert or whatever, I could hold it a little closer to me and shorten it.
So I had the freedom to adjust my grip accordingly to the environment. And so that was amazing. And I all the time, remember we're at our training centers, we are immersed with other blind people demonstrating these skills, role modeling all the time. So really reinforcing that being in a positive community is very powerful.
Anil Lewis:
Let's take a break, I guess. And then when we come back, we'll introduce another individual that's benefited from this positive philosophy around blindness and skills training.
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, welcome back. Thank you so much, Pam, for explaining structured discovery and traveling with a long cane and all of those advantages. And now why don't we get into the meat and potatoes of this and talk to somebody who has benefited from this type of training and this type of philosophy. She is a dynamo person. She now lives in Colorado, but she was in Michigan when she was growing up, and then she was in...
Anil Lewis:
Oh man, I remember her being a little young whipper snapper in Michigan with the student division there. Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
I do too. And I remember her being in California and she's had many different jobs and I'm sure she's going to introduce herself because that's just the way she is. We are going to bring in now Jordyn Castor. How are you, Jordyn?
Jordyn Castor:
Hey everybody. How's it going? I'm doing well. I'm so excited to be on the podcast. Thank you for having me.
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, we're so excited to have you. Did you get training at one of our NFB centers?
Jordyn Castor:
So I actually never did a long nine month adult program, but I did do a program for three months at BLIND Inc. when I graduated from high school.
Melissa Riccobono:
Got it.
Jordyn Castor:
And that was very empowering for me because it was the first time that I received travel training and training in the kitchen and things like that from blind instructors. I had been to camps...
Anil Lewis:
For our listeners just to offer BLIND Inc. is now being rebranded as the Minnesota Center for the Blind. And it's wonderful that you had that experience in high school because that's really what we try to get more and more students to get that skills training definitely before they go to college.
Jordyn Castor:
I remember my first independent route, and Rob who's in Minnesota was like, "You need to go to the grocery store and pick up something and then come back." And I was like, "Huh. So I'm going to cross this street and this street and this street," and I knew all the streets. I knew where I was supposed to go, but it was my first time not having that route, not having practiced something by myself and being out in a big city like that.
And I was like, "Okay, well," and so I went to the grocery store. It was this little market, I don't even remember what it was called to be honest. And I picked up sourdough bread and I brought it back. And it's funny that I remember these things in such detail because it was such a empowering and such a vivid memory in my mind. So I brought back this...
Anil Lewis:
I bet that was the best sourdough bread.
Jordyn Castor:
Oh, it was so good. I made (Anil laughs), and that was the first time I had made egg salad in the kitchen also. So I had my egg salad and my sourdough bread, and it was a really empowering summer, just being able to benefit from that immersed experience and really getting away from that route mentality. I had been involved in the NFB since I was eleven or twelve. I went to the first Youth Slam in 2007, but when that was only a week out of the summer and the leadership retreats and things, it was a weekend.
And so it was like you got this weekend and this week of empowering freedom and then you went straight back to the route mentality. And so I think it was really hard to break out of that until I got into high school. And I remember meeting with my O&M instructor, my instructor who taught me cane travel in high school and her saying, "What had you wished we had done with you? You are our best traveler that has come out of this school system. What do you wish we had done?"
And I said, "More mental mapping skills, less reliance on the knowing a route from A to B," because that's where you find the true empowerment. Like Pam said, you're going to a friend's house, you're like, "Oh, hey, I want to pick up coffee or doughnuts on the way." That's no problem because the mental map is there and the skills are there.
Anil Lewis:
You guys can come visit me anytime. Just bring me the doughnuts and the coffee. Just come by and visit me anytime.
Melissa Riccobono:
I love chocolate ones (Pam laughs).
Jordyn Castor
I'll bring you a voodoo doughnut maple bacon.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh, maple. Okay. That's all right. That's fair. That works.
Anil Lewis:
So do you like to travel, Jordyn?
Jordyn Castor:
I love to travel. I think it's so...
Anil Lewis:
What's your favorite vacation place?
Jordyn Castor:
I think it's so fun traveling and it hasn't always been that way for me. I think travel used to be very anxiety inducing because when you go out into the world as a blind person, you never know how you're going to be perceived or who's going to approach you or what silly comment you might get. And sometimes it's all too much and you just don't want to do it. And over these past couple of years, I think maybe even just the past year as I've been traveling more and more, I've just relaxed into it and I know that, "Hey, I might run across a silly comment or someone who doesn't know about blindness or the NFB philosophy," but I can stand strong and I can stand confident in who I am as a person and the skills I have and how I react to these comments.
I don't have to be in like a go, go, go. I have to educate. I have to (Anil laughs), people ask me if I want to take a wheelchair and I have to do this whole long spiel about how my legs work just fine (Melissa laughs) and yada yada, I can just relax into it and know that I'm a confident traveler and know I have the skills. So that's been my biggest takeaway over the past year. But you asked about my favorite vacation place.
So far, I think one of the most beautiful places I've been is St. Croix. I went there on my cruise in December and I wound up taking a catamaran sailing, an excursion. And so we got on this big catamaran boat, I think it was like sixty feet. And it was interesting because my mom was with me on the trip. I took her as kind of a Christmas present, but she had gotten hurt that day, so she didn't go on the excursion.
So it was my first excursion, quote unquote alone as a blind person. And so we got on this catamaran and we sailed and it was sunny and gorgeous, and then we got to get off into the ocean. And the ocean was the perfect temperature. And the sand was just like, it felt like powdered sugar under your feet and there was no seaweed or sometimes beaches have a lot of things where you're like, "Ew, ew, ew, don't touch me." But this was really beautiful and I think that's probably one of my favorite places I've been so far.
Melissa Riccobono:
And you had an interesting, I don't know what exactly they call it, but I guess a different interesting experience. I heard that on your cruise you actually somehow were able to get somebody as a audio describer visual interpreter and that somebody is actually with us here. So maybe you want to talk just a little bit about how you were able to do that and then let your friend, because I think it seems like the two of you are friends now.
Jordyn Castor:
Oh yeah, we are friends.
Melissa Riccobono:
Introduce and talk a little bit about that experience.
Jordyn Castor:
Absolutely. So I was researching cruises and I found this cruise line called Virgin, and it was adults only. And when I saw that, I was like, sign me up, because I had only been on Disney cruises before that. Disney cruises, there are a lot of children. So when I saw the Virgin Cruise Line, I was really excited and they seem like they have a really different way, and I know now that they have a very different way of doing cruising.
And this is not an advertisement for Virgin, of course, but I could spend a whole podcast just talking about how much fun I had, and I got a balcony room and there was a hammock on my balcony. It was fantastic. And when I had booked my Disney cruises previously, I had gone with my brothers and my brothers are also blind. And so I emailed Disney to see if they could provide me with an audio describer to describe the different shows.
And I figured that since the parks had audio description, the cruise line must also, now that's not the case, nor did they provide audio description for a cruise. So when I went on my Virgin cruise, I was like, well, let me try again. Let me see what happens. And so when you book a cruise, Disney, Royal Caribbean, Virgin, etc., they have what are called access desks or accessibility helplines. And a lot of them only work via email.
So you have to make sure you get your requests in really early pretty much when you book your crews, I would say, because response times can vary. And so I emailed Virgin and I was like, "Hey, here's a situation. I'm blind. I'd like to see if there could be an audio descriptionist assigned to my sailing." And I hadn't really heard anything back. And then one day I got this and they were like, "Yeah, of course we can accommodate this for you. We've assigned Carlin to your sailing."
And I was just blown away over the moon because no cruise line had approached to this with the open-mindedness that Virgin did. And one of the coolest things was that usually my mom is my eyeballs for shows or when we're walking through different tourist attractions and experiences. And my mom looked at me one night and she said, "Yeah, I leaned over to tell you a joke and you were already laughing because Carlin had described it to you already," and Carlin was actually able to get off the ship.
So when we did things like we had an excursion where we got to dance the meringue and eat sancocho, which is a cultural dish, a stew in Puerto Plata, yeah, Puerto Plata, she was able to describe what was going on and we had a really fun time dancing the meringue, and it was just really, really fun. And I feel like my experience on the cruise and in these towns was so enriched.
I remember we had a street that was called the Pink Street, and it was just covered in these pink umbrellas, but not only was it covered with these umbrellas, but there was just ornate decorations on the walls and it was cobblestone streets and just so many details that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise that I can appreciate now and look back on and remember. Wow, that was so cool.
Melissa Riccobono:
That is really cool. So Carlin, do you want to just talk a little bit about what the experience was like for you and how you got into this type of thing? Have you've done it before or what your job is like?
Carlin Thomas:
Absolutely. So go back a little chronologically. So the path that led me to this opportunity with Jordyn, I do audio description locally in Phoenix primarily for live events. And I've been doing it for several years now, going on a decade, kind of got into it accidentally, but discovered that I really loved it and have a passion for it. So I've been trying to encourage different venues around here to offer it as a service, to make it available, make it something that people don't have to call and request something that they can just come in and do.
So that's always the ideal when it comes to description is that either there's already a preselected date where those things are available, or all you have to do is say, "Hey, I'm coming this date, can you make sure this is ready for me?" But long story short, I did events for a large venue in town and the person who was in charge of accessibility there moved on to get a job with Virgin.
And so when she got this request, she's like, "Oh, I know just the person." And so she reached out to me and in a matter of days we had the contract signed and ready. I had about two weeks notice for the trip, but I was so glad I was able to make it and that this was able to happen. And I think the way that it was handled with Virgin was kind of ideal.
It's what we look for in situations like this, minimal amount of work required on the customer's end and really just enabling them to have a good time and for me to help that happen. And I'm so glad that it worked out that we could, I had a blast as well. We did identify together, Jordyn and I, a couple ways that Virgin could improve the service in the future, but since it's still relatively new to them, considering this was what I understand to be one of the first times that they've really offered it.
I could be wrong on that, but it felt really seamless for most things. The areas for improvements were rather tiny and all things considered, and they've been really receptive to our feedback on that as well, which is amazing. But it was a wonderful experience. The crew on the ship worked with us anytime. We're like, "Hey, we really need this thing," which really only came into play when we were booking those excursions and when we were doing live performances.
They didn't quite have the mic set up that I would've liked for a situation like that. So all we did in that case was I just sat in the row behind Jordan and another gentleman that we met on the cruise who was also blind, and so we invited them to join us since I was already going to be describing the experience. So I just kind of leaned between them both and provided description kind of whispering in their ears, like a little description fairy. It was delightful (Carlin laughs).
Jordyn Castor:
I think we were trailblazers for that, definitely. And the crew was truly incredible. Definitely from my Royal Caribbean cruise I just took, it was a lot harder to get everyone together to listen to the description. We had multiple blind people. It was a lot harder to get people together and Virgin, right when I got there to get on the ship, they said, "Hey, here I am. My name is Rafaella. I'm going to take you on a ship's tour and here's Carlin, they're your audio describer." And it was just so seamless and fabulous. Not to mention the food and the dancing (Carlin laughs) and everything. We already, well, I have two cruises booked again in December and November, and I know that when I reach out, they're going to be ready. And Carlin and I are like, "When can we do that again? When can we travel again? (Carlin laughs)" It was very, very fun.
Anil Lewis:
So Carlin, are you an employee of Virgin or are you a subcontractor?
Carlin Thomas:
No, I'm a subcontractor.
Anil Lewis:
Okay. And did you get training for this work or did you just...
Carlin Thomas:
Yes, so when I initially began doing audio description for primarily artistic nonprofits, theaters, museums, things like that, there is a group in Arizona called ArtabilityAZ, and they're the ones that gave me my primary training, and it was just an interesting opportunity. At the time I was working for a theater and the person who had previously been doing their audio description, who also worked for them, was leaving for a new opportunity.
So they're like, "Hey, who wants to learn this?" I volunteered and I'm so glad I did. It's just been growing ever since and started my own little LLC going to try and do more travel describing. I had been sticking mostly to local things, but realized that this is a niche that really needs more people to fill because while there are a growing number of people that are trained in audio description, not all of them have the availability to just travel as much as we'd like to.
Anil Lewis:
So hold that thought.
Carlin Thomas:
Yes.
Anil Lewis:
I don't know what Jordyn's mentioned this to you, but there's an opportunity that you might want to be made aware of and I guess we can hear more about that after the break.
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Anil Lewis:
So welcome back Carlin. I don't know whether Jordyn talked to you about it, but there is a gathering of, oh, probably close to 3000 blind people with their family and friends going to happen in New Orleans this year. The National Convention of the National Federation of the Blind, there's going to be lots of blind people traveling there. So we're going to spend some time talking about the travel and give some suggestions to some of our listeners who will be attending about their travel. But maybe if you listen, you might think of an opportunity that you may able put your skills to work for some other individuals who like to benefit from your expertise as Jordyn has.
Carlin Thomas:
Lovely
Anil Lewis:
Pam?
Pam Allen:
Yes, we'd love to welcome you Carlin.
Carlin Thomas:
I would love to be involved. I've spoken a couple times at a local conference, but I've always wanted to go to New Orleans.
Pam Allen:
Well, it's a wonderful city. This is it.
Melissa Riccobono:
Now might be your time, July 8th through the 13th. You could...
Carlin Thomas:
Consider me there.
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, I'm going to be there and Anil, will you be there?
Anil Lewis:
Oh, absolutely.
Melissa Riccobono:
Jordan, will you be there?
Jordyn Castor:
I am going to try and be there.
Melissa Riccobono:
Okay.
Jordyn Castor:
My baby sister is getting married.
Melissa Riccobono:
Aww.
Anil Lewis:
She can get married at the convention (everyone laughs).
Jordyn Castor:
Right. I should convince her to do that.
Anil Lewis:
It's been done. It's been done.
Jordyn Castor:
It has been done.
Anil Lewis:
There you go. Exactly.
Jordyn Castor:
But I said, "Maddie, you had to pick the weekend of my favorite convention city (everyone laughs)." No, I'm happy for her, but I would love to be there for a couple days.
Pam Allen:
Maybe you can sneak in a couple of days, Jordyn, we hope.
Jordyn Castor:
I would love to.
Melissa Riccobono:
And Pam, will you be there?
Pam Allen:
I'm thinking about it.
Melissa Riccobono:
Okay. Alright, well.
Pam Allen:
Yeah, I most definitely will be there.
Melissa Riccobono:
Pam, when was your very first convention of the National Federation of the Blind nationally, and what was that experience like for you?
Pam Allen:
Well, as a matter of fact, it was in New Orleans. I would've ever imagined that little did I know when I was in college, I was a national scholarship winner for the NFB and in that year the convention was in New Orleans. So I never would've imagined that I would someday be the president of the Louisiana affiliate at that time.
I was very new to the NFB at the time and what my experience was like, I still could remember it vividly, really transformative in the sense that I was in a place where there were people using canes and guide dogs and all these blind people, thousands of blind people talking about discovery, learning. Exploring the hotel, the city, traveling where they wanted to go, when they wanted to go, blind people leading meetings, conducting all the parts of the convention and just such a positive philosophy about blindness. You could feel it in the air.
Melissa Riccobono:
I totally, completely agree, and that was, President Riccobono always likes to say that we make a space for the days of convention where blindness is just normal. And that's really the shot in the arm. I think that's very true and that's really the shot in the arm that so many of us, including myself, need to get me through the whole year because you go and it is normal. It's completely normal to be blind. Very few people yell at you or say, give you really weird comments or all those things that Jordyn was talking about.
And if you have a question about, "Wow, you found the escalator so quickly, how did you do that?" "Well, I listened for it." Or "What do I do with my cane when I'm in this position or what do I do?" You have about a zillion people that you can ask right away and you might get a zillion answers, but in those zillion answers you'll find at least one if not more, that work for you.
Anil Lewis:
And you can make choices. Exactly.
Pam Allen:
Exactly. Well, and I remember just hearing all, I was in college at the time, so I was very involved with the National Association of Blind Students, really tuned in there, but also hearing presentations and sitting in other meetings from blind people in so many different careers. And of course I was very fortunate. I have a wonderful family that had high expectations and always encouraged me, but when you hear a blind scientist speaking, you're like, "Wow, this really is possible."
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah.
Pam Allen:
So, I think just seeing blind parents with their kids just running their families, taking care of business, I mean people of all different ages. And I think to what you were saying is, and that's core I think to our training here at the center and our centers is that you have choices. You are in control of you. You get to decide what you want to do, how you want to get there, what time you want to leave, etc. And you are able to make those choices because you have the skills and the confidence to do it.
Anil Lewis:
And there's a host of different skills. There's no one way to do it. When I'm traveling to convention, I know a lot of people have anxiety, so going through the airport is one of the things that gets people nervous. But what I've noticed more and more is that when I'm traveling through the airport, most of them have that music playing and most of the music is played from speakers that point down directly from the center of the concourse.
So as long as you walk and keep that music right above your head, you're walking down the middle of the concourse. And that's really very liberating. Of course, you can't account for the people walking the hill, willy and nilly looking at their phones. I've been standing still if someone walked into me because they're on their phone. But it does allow you to orient and travel fairly independently in a lot of different spaces.
Pam Allen:
We were talking earlier about getting lost and having, I think that sometimes as blind people, we think we're the only people that need information or have to ask questions or for directions. But I remember traveling in an airport for the first time by myself and I realized, wait a second, everybody is asking, "Do you know where gate such and such is? Do you where this is? How do I get here?" And they didn't think twice about it. And so I always reminded there are thousands of people in the airport to ask questions. And so I think sometimes we don't notice that. And if you kind of step back and realize like, hey, we're all traveling. Most of us, this is new and unfamiliar territory, we're kind of all in this together. That takes away some of the anxiety.
Anil Lewis:
There's that visual assistance stuff. And I'm not hating on the technology, but I think some of the old scale stuff that really helps. I was coming back from a trip to Jamaica and I was in an airport that I wasn't familiar with and they were getting someone to service and escort, etc., and I just didn't want to wait because it was like it going to take forever. And I heard this passenger getting off and she was wearing these flip flops and I was like, well, can I just follow you? Your shoes are very blind friendly (everyone laughs). "Do you mind if..." That worked out quite well? So there's a lot of different skills you can use to travel.
Pam Allen:
Exactly.
Melissa Riccobono:
The other thing that really has helped me with anxiety is just really reminding myself in general, the airport and the hotels, they're safe places. There's not like some huge sinkhole that's going to swallow me up (Anil and Pam laughs). The chances of anything horrible happening, there's not cars now, there's sometimes those golf carts and things, but it is really, it's a place that has a pattern. It has room numbers or gate numbers, concourses that even if it's hard to find or there are, it might not be completely true, but most of it makes some type of logical sense in some way. Now again, there might be some things that don't make as much sense, but in general, once you start just reminding yourself that it's completely safe, nothing bad is going to happen to you if you go out on your own and start to explore, especially in the convention hotel.
The airport, okay, I can kind of see, because you might get worried you're going to miss your flight or whatever else, and that's fair. I'm with Anil though. I don't want to just wait for somebody to walk with me (Pam laughs). Most of the time I'm just going to go out on my own and find people along the way to ask and I will get where I want to go because I've just found that to be the most, really the best way to do things for a variety of reasons.
Sometimes those people that wait with you, they just won't let you do anything. I've certainly had the experience where I've wanted to just get to the gate so I know where it is, and then I've wanted to go out and do my own coffee run or whatever, and the person just will not leave me alone to do the things that I want (Melissa laughs).
Anil Lewis:
I'm responsible for you (Pam laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
Right. And that's really frustrating.
Jordyn Castor:
You are not where I put you. You are (Anil laughs)...
Melissa Riccobono:
That's right. What are you doing moving?
Pam Allen:
How dare you.
Melissa Riccobono:
I'll get your coffee for you. No, I don't know what I want.
Jordyn Castor:
How dare you go get a bagel.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, it's crazy. But anyway, just reminding yourself that in general, you have your smarts, you have your cane, you have the ability to ask questions and to listen, and really you are going to be safe. There's nothing bad that's going to happen to you. And so a lot of travel is just reminding yourself of that and then just doing it. And the first time you do it, yeah, maybe you're really scared, and then the second time you do it, you're not quite as scared.
And by the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth time you're doing it, you don't even remember that you were scared to begin with. And then that helps you build the map of that hotel or that airport and then you move to a different one and you figure out what's the same and what's different. And it all builds on each other, but you have to start somewhere. And if you're not ready to go to a big hotel, a big conference of 3,000 blind people, work around your block, work in your own supermarket, work finding your own bus stop, whatever it is that will get you out and get you moving in a way that makes you feel relatively safe, that's really a good way to go about it in my opinion.
Jordyn Castor:
I think one of the things that always got to me at the airport was "How am I going to find the bathroom? Where are the bathrooms?" And once you start recognizing those patterns, I know when I'm at the Denver airport, the carpet, usually the carpet, they've started remodeling some things now, but the carpet is the gates, the tiles are the concourses, the tiles sound different.
The ceilings and the openings sound different in the concourses than in the gate area, and there are always bathrooms in the tiled concourses. That's one of the things that always used to worry me unnecessarily because like Melissa said, you have your skills, you have your cane, you have your smarts. I feel like a lot of times people know how to do things. It's just a matter of getting out and actually doing the scary thing.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah and you'll find it so funny. I have a sighter friend I travel with and she was looking around for the restroom and I heard the flush (everyone laughs). I said "It's right over there on the right there, right over there."
Jordyn Castor:
I've done that before too. Exactly.
Pam Allen:
Same for the escalator.
Melissa Riccobono:
The moving sidewalks.
Jordyn Castor:
Coffee shops, moving sidewalks, yup.
Pam Allen:
Yeah, your favorite eatery. There are a lot of cute clues and I mean, think about it, on a plane, people are either going to another gate or going out of the airport getting their bags first and out. So it's like we're all kind of traveling in the same direction. So many great clues.
Jordyn Castor:
I wanted to say one other thing really quickly is that being around other blind people, whether you go to a state convention or a national convention or a local chapter is just so empowering and you will learn something new. Even during this conversation when Anil said, you can listen to the speakers at the airport, and most often those will be in the center of the concourse. I didn't know that. I had no idea. Now I'm going to have to test out this theory (Pam and Melissa laugh) at the airport when I go, but you'll always learn something new. And that's when I find, one of the things I find so empowering about going to convention.
Anil Lewis:
Agreed. Melissa, did our listeners have any questions or concerns about this topic?
Melissa Riccobono:
We asked our followers on social media. What are your travel tips when traveling to the National Convention/conferences or vacations, etc.? Kayla from Alabama said, "I always bring at least one extra collapsible cane and a few extra tips." Very, very good.
Anil Lewis:
Oh yeah. It's like a spare tire.
Melissa Riccobono:
For sure. Yep. I in fact have one in my backpack on this trip to Wisconsin and I have an extra tip or two. Elizabeth from Illinois said, "Bring a sweater for the inside because hotels (Melissa and Pam laugh) have a ton of air conditioning." I remember one year I had a guide dog at the time. She was laying on the floor and she was shaking. She was so cold, and I thought, I don't even have a fur coat and I'm cold. If something with a fur coat is shivering (Pam laughs), this room is way too cold. Way too cold.
Anil Lewis:
Way too cold, but atleast you could put your feet underneath your guide dog to keep (Anil laughs)...
Melissa Riccobono:
I did, but she was shivering so I couldn't. Anyway, Stephanie from Louisiana said, "Start looking at the agenda beforehand and make your own schedule. Keeping in mind, your mind and body will need breaks. So don't overextend yourself. At the same time, it's okay if you want to do multiple things at the same time. Put them on your schedule. Go to your favorite first, but it's okay to step out if it's not what you thought and go to a different meeting.
Anil Lewis:
Good tip.
Melissa Riccobono:
You are not committing to an entire meeting by just showing up." That's a very good thing. "Make time for the exhibit hall. Some people do it in one big chunk of time while others do better. Exploring certain sections in smaller increments. It is huge, loud, and can be tricky to navigate. For some people, it is okay if you cannot see everything the first time you go. I also like to order groceries for the week (Anil laughs), like water snacks and maybe something for breakfast and lunch, like protein shakes and stuff for sandwiches.
That way I'm only buying one meal a day, sometimes two, depending on what's going on." Very, very good information. And we do have, in case our listeners don't know, our exhibit hall at the National Federation of the Blind Convention is an amazing place where many vendors with all sorts of technology, the latest and greatest and the oldies, but goodies, I would say (Melissa and Pam laugh), plus affiliates will sell different things. I'm sorry for a donation to the affiliates you can get certain things.
Jordyn Castor:
Get your popcorn!
Melissa Riccobono:
And that's exactly what it is. It is many people yelling many different things, but we do have print and Braille signs now on each table, so you know what it is that the table has. It's really a good thing. There's an information desk. You can get a tactile map of the exhibit hall, but that's what the exhibit hall it is. In case you don't know what that is. But those are very good convention tips. They didn't really talk much about vacation tips or day-to-day travel tips. Anil, do you have any vacation trip tips or day-to-day travel tips?
Anil Lewis:
Well, my new vacation tip is to get Carlin (everyone laughs). No, my biggest vacation trip is don't be afraid. I was never an international traveler. A friend of mine said, "I'd love to go to Italy." I said, "You should go." And then she's like, "Well, I don't have anybody to go with." I said, "Well, I'll go with you." And it was really stepping out on faith, and I'm going to tell you, oh my goodness, I had more fun than she did (Melissa laughs). It was wonderful. It's really an affirmation that what we just talked about, about that confidence and problem solving, etc. It really didn't come into play, but it was much more seamless because it was a vacation. So it wasn't a test. It wasn't anything high pressure, and I was able to just enjoy myself. So my biggest travel tip, don't be afraid, just be excited about it and experience it and have fun.
Melissa Riccobono:
Jordyn, how about you?
Jordyn Castor:
Oh, this is a tough one for me. I feel like I could talk all day about vacationing. I would say relax. Vacations are a time to relax and refresh and explore and learn new things. And so that's what I've been trying to do is relax and not push myself too hard and to do too many things, but to do at least one or two exciting things like swimming with the dolphins or catamaran or things like that. So yeah, just relax. And I find that if I don't make a big deal about being blind, then other people won't make a big deal.
They're just like, "Oh, it's Jordyn." When I went on my Virgin cruises, I introduced myself on Facebook to my group of fellow travelers and I said, "Hey, I'm blind. I can't see you, so come say hi to me on the ship." And people did that, and I made the best of friends on the cruise, and I love talking to people.
Anil Lewis:
No (sarcasm, and Melissa laughs).
Jordyn Castor:
Yeah maybe just a little. So wait, is that my hint? Is that my hint to stop talking? But I love getting to know people, so just striking up conversations at dinner or while waiting in line and things like that. Just having a fun time. Relaxing and having fun.
Melissa Riccobono:
That's awesome. Pam, how about you? You've been on lots of vacations.
Pam Allen:
Yes, my husband, we love to travel. My husband's also blind, and so we have done a lot of discovery, learning lots of places. We love to cruise and love to travel in general. I love the tips that have been given so far and definitely agree with them. And I would also add, I like to read up and do little research ahead of time so that I can have some basic information and still have a lot of flexibility about what I want to do and what we're going to discover. But just reading up ahead time, doing some research on the places you're going to visit or we love to go find local, get off the tourist path a little bit and really explore, ask.
We'll say to somebody that's like, "Hey, what's your favorite local restaurant?" Like someone that lives there. So we found some great real treasures there. And just being open to being flexible. Sometimes on vacations, things just flow perfectly. And then other times the weather isn't what you thought it was going to be on the day you were supposed to do this excursion outside, so you have to regroup, but there's still joy in a change of plan. So just being open and flexible because sometimes that is actually better than what you had planned. So you might find, just be open to what's possible.
Anil Lewis:
How about you, Melissa?
Melissa Riccobono:
I completely agree with all of that. I would say for me, doing the research is really important, but also just considering what kind of a vacation you want and where you want to be. Do you want to be in a resort where everything's all just right there and you don't have to worry about it? I loved that on our honeymoon, that it was all inclusive. And the one night I said, "Oh, what dessert do I want?" And my husband said, "Have both," (Pam laughs).
Anil Lewis:
Get all of them (Pam and Anil laugh).
Melissa Riccobono:
And I was like, "Oh my gosh. I actually, oh, I could."
Pam Allen:
(Pam laughs) that was the hardest decision...
Melissa Riccobono:
He's like, "Yeah, we already paid for it (Pam laughs)."
Anil Leewis:
That's too liberating (Anil laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
Everything was right there. And that was really nice. But other times, most other times we've actually never been back to an all-inclusive. We might have to change that one of these times (Melissa, Anil and Pam laugh), but other times we've gone places and we've loved it. We rented an Airbnb in Florida, but when we rented it, we really did look at what is it close to? Are there Uber and Lyft? Now that there's Uber and Lyft, things are usually a lot easier transportation wise, but are there things we can walk to? Are we going to be kind of out in the middle of nowhere? Just those things. All the kinds of vacations can be great, but it really does help knowing whether everything's going to kind of be right in one smaller area or whether you're going to have to figure out or think about other ways.
And especially if you're traveling with other people who drive, making sure that you sort of know your own transportation options if there are any, so that you're not just stuck leaving when they leave, going, when they go, doing everything they do or staying behind, because that to me would drive me crazy and would possibly be a setup for kind of a bad vacation. Great if everybody's getting along and wants to do all the same things all the time, but pretty horrible if you just don't, for whatever reason, you want your own kind of time and space. So just thinking about those things.
Anil Lewis:
But let's focus on all the wonderful things at first (Melissa and Pam laugh), and we don't have a lot more time in this podcast, but we'll focus on all those positive reasons that you should go on vacations and we'd be happy to hear.
Pam Allen:
Well, and let me just say, if you want to stay a couple extra days in New Orleans or come a few days early before you come to National Convention (Anil laughs), there are some fabulous opportunities there.
Melissa Riccobono:
We are. My mother-in-law has never been to New Orleans, so we are taking her. We're coming early, so we'll be, I was going to just say real quickly, since we have Carlin here, Carlin, if somebody wants to, do you have a website, is there a way to get ahold of you or what would your thoughts be for people who might want somebody to come on a vacation as an audio describer?
Carlin Thomas:
My recommendation would be first to go through the company if you're doing a cruise or something that is more all inclusive, because typically they should be the ones paying for it. If you are interested in getting that individually. I am working on a website, actually, it's not up yet, but my company is called Listen Hear, spelled H-e-a-r. And I do a lot of audio description for multitude of things, but also ask around if you're wanting something more locally. If you're going to New Orleans and you want someone who knows the area,
ask live venues that are a bit on the larger side.
That's where I've met most other people who are in this business is through theaters and performance venues and things like that. The bigger they are, the more likely they are to have a go-to person. So again, I would be happy to do it, but sometimes you really want someone who knows everything about the area and knows what they're doing. I would be new to New Orleans, but I'd still be happy to be joining folks on little excursions for the conference weekend, things like that. So yeah, I can provide that info.
Anil Lewis:
I would second Pam Allen's recommendation that if you want a vacation with a purpose, come join us in New Orleans. We can't talk all day about traveling, but we'd love to hear about your travel experiences. So if you guys want to reach out to the podcast and let us know some exciting things that you've done in your travel space, we'd love to hear about them. But until then, remember, you can live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono:
Blindness is not what holds you back.
Announcer:
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