Announcer:
Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast presented by the National Federation of the Blind, the transformative membership and advocacy organization of blind Americans. Live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono:
Hello and welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast. I am Melissa Riccobono, and I am joined by a fantastic human being, not a stranger to the Nation's Blind Podcast, but somebody that has not been here for a while, but she does join Anil and me during national convention, sometimes Washington Seminar. This is Danielle McCann. How are you, Danielle?
Danielle McCann:
I'm great. How are you doing, Melissa?
Melissa Riccobono:
I am doing wonderfully.
Danielle McCann:
Thank you for having me.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh, I'm so excited that you're here.
Danielle McCann:
I have to tell you that I am here also with Cammie, my Seeing Eye dog, so she's also in the room.
Melissa Riccobono:
Okay, and Cammie, you are a perfect segue because we are going to be talking about guide dogs and guide dog use, and that is the topic of this podcast. So Danielle, you have Cammie. Is Cammie your first dog or have you had other dogs?
Danielle McCann:
Cammie is my fifth dog. She's my fifth dog all from Seeing Eye, and we've been a team since late February of 2023.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow. And so who, just quickly, what doggies did you have before?
Danielle McCann:
We had Abby, Valla, Katie, Schultz, who's still at home. He's retired, he'll be ten next week. And Cammie.
Melissa Riccobono:
Cammie, I remember Katie and I remember Schultz and I definitely know Cammie.
Danielle McCann:
Oh yeah.
For those that don't know, Cammie very much enjoys being around President Riccobono and he is one of her favorite people. And most dogs love President Riccobono guide dog or pet dog. There's only one dog ever that I have seen in my twenty some year relationship with a man that has not liked him. So anyway, he's a guy that for whatever reason the puppies really appreciate. I was a guide dog user for a while. I had my guide dogs from Guide Dogs for the Blind, Fanta like the soda was mine from 1998 through 2008. And then she went and lived with my parents for another couple years. So she lived to be a very old puppy of 14.
And then I had Formosa who I got in 2008 and sort of retired, semi-retired, maybe 2017 or so, but I wasn't going as many difficult places. So she would still go pick up kids from school and things, but she passed away during the pandemic and I have not gotten a dog since then. So I am also, I know what it's like to use a guide dog, even though I do not use one currently. But we have other current guide dog users and even a guide dog trainer on this podcast. So should we bring them in?
Yeah, let's do it.
Melissa Riccobono:
Okay. So we have a woman who I had a chance to be with a little while in the beginning of April during the National Federation of the Blind of Wisconsin convention and have known her for a number of years. This is Meghan Whalen. How are you, Meghan?
Meghan Whalen:
I'm great. How are you doing, Melissa?
Melissa Riccobono:
I am doing well. And are you working a dog currently?
Meghan Whalen:
Yeah, I have a two-year-old weimaraner.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow, wow. Excellent.
Danielle McCann:
What's his or her name?
Meghan Whalen:
Her name is Triby.
Danielle McCann:
Oh, I love that.
Meghan Whalen:
(Chuckles).
Melissa Riccobono:
Nice. Very nice. And how many dogs have you trained, would you say?
Meghan Whalen:
About seven or eight.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow.
Meghan Whalen:
Some for myself and some for others.
Melissa Riccobono:
Fantastic. And how many guide dogs have you worked in total?
Meghan Whalen:
Too many. I've had eight (Melissa laughs). I've had a lot of medical and whatever stuff happen, so.
Melissa Riccobono:
Got it. Excellent. And then we have the president of the National Association of Guide Dog Users, NAGDU. Megan, are you president of the Wisconsin Association of Guide Dog Users?
Meghan Whalen:
I am, yes.
Melissa Riccobono:
Okay. That is the best name (Meghan laughs) for one of our divisions ever. WAGDU...
Danielle McCann:
Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
You cannot go wrong.
Danielle McCann:
Cannont.
Melissa Riccobono:
You cannot with that.
Meghan Whalen:
No, you can't. That's absolutely true (Melissa and Danielle laugh).
Melissa Riccobono:
Anyway, Raul Gallegos is the president of the National Association of Guide Dog Users. He comes to us from Texas. How are you, Raul?
Raul Gallegos:
I'm doing well, and thank you for inviting me.
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, thank you for being available.
Raul Gallegos:
I have to say, I love the acronym WAGDU Better than NAGDU, but things are what they are.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yes (Raul, Melissa and Danielle laugh), yes. And are you currently working a dog, Raul?
Raul Gallegos:
Yes, I sure am. His name is Larry and in public, he's known as Melvin (Melissa laughs), but his real name is Larry and he's from Guiding Eyes.
Danielle McCann:
I love that.
Melissa Riccobono:
Nice. And how many dogs have you had?
Raul Gallegos:
I've had a whopping two dogs.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow.
Raul Gallegos:
First dog was UB, he was also from Guiding Eyes, and he was my guide from 1993 until 2000.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow.
Raul Gallegos:
And then I took a hiatus and then Larry and I have been a team since 2017.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow. So you took a break and went back. So that might be a really good question. We're going to talk a lot about guide dogs and the gamut of all of these questions that kind of come to my mind at least, and I'm sure Danielle's as well. Danielle, do you have a question you want us to start with?
Danielle McCann:
Yeah, so just going back a little bit, April 30th was International Guide Dog Day. In my house we still are celebrating it (Melissa laughs). I think if it were up to Cammie, we'd celebrate all year round. But I wanted to ask all of you, since you've all handled dogs in the past or are currently working dogs, what made you decide to start working with a guide dog?
Raul Gallegos:
For me, it was a decision where I wanted to enhance my travel. I wanted to put a little icing on the cake. So for example, I feel that I am a good cane traveler, love the cane, and as we progress through this recording, I'm going to talk a little bit about that a little more as it comes up. But I wanted to have some travel enhancement and really get the experience of I'm a very curious person by nature, whether it's with technology or travel or other things.
And so I like to learn a little bit about how people do things a little differently. And in the early nineties when I was a teenager, I had a few friends that I met that were guide dog users and I saw some of the differences in some of the way they traveled compared to the way that cane users traveled. And so I really wanted to experience that for myself. And so that was really where that interest came from.
Danielle McCann:
That's awesome. Very cool. And Meghan?
Meghan Whalen:
So I got my first guide when I was seventeen. And at that time, a lot of it was honestly that one of my O&M instructors had kind of set it as a goal of mine. Like, "Hey, I think it'd be great if you got a dog," which isn't the best foundation for that. But I did have a pet dog who I loved working with, playing training, all that stuff. And so I was very excited about the idea of a deeper partnership. And then once I got my first dog, I really enjoyed the teamwork of it and the accountability and just the results of if I put in good work, I got good results. And I do enjoy that partnership, I think. And like Raul, I also very much value my cane as a travel tool, but I do enjoy that teamwork, I guess.
Danielle McCann:
I really like what you said about putting in the hard work and putting in good work and getting good results. I really think that that's a great way to look at it. Very cool.
Melissa Riccobono:
How about you, Danielle?
Danielle McCann:
Oh, let's see. I originally decided to get a guide dog because I wanted to get around campus. I went to school in a small town in east Texas, and the terrain was kind of rough sometimes with my cane and I wanted to get around easier and I wanted a buddy, honestly. I was doing a lot of things, traveling independently and I just would felt like it would be better with a buddy. And so I got a dog. My dad really encouraged me to do it, but he was under the impression that guide dogs kept you safe. So he's like, "It's going to protect you. You're not going to be bothered." And that's not what do, but I think the companionship is what really made me want to get a dog.
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, and sometimes it's not that they're trained to do it, but there certainly are people that will look at you with a dog and think twice. And then there are people that will look at you with a dog and want to tell you their life story (Danielle and Raul laugh) and how many dogs they've owned and how beautiful your dog is and how great their dog was. And that's the kind of, to me, one of the drawbacks of working a dog. I was kind of like you Danielle, in a sense.
Well, and like Meghan, I was told by an O&M instructor when I was touring my college campus and working on knowing where all my classes were, he said, "You're such a fast walker. I think you would really fly if you had a guide dog." And I'd always liked dogs, and I always had kind of thought about maybe getting a guide dog someday.
And at that time I was sort of like, "I'm just starting college. This isn't the right time. Let me live on my own in the dorm first and get used to college." And then I broke about, I don't know, six or seven canes during my college year because other people weren't paying any attention. Bicyclists ran over one, people tripped over them, all these things. And I thought, well, a dog won't break. And also I had a night class and I always felt fairly safe, but it was dark. I had the class second semester, so it was wintertime, very dark and I was going to class in the dark and coming home from class in the dark, and I thought if I had a guide dog, I would feel just a little bit safer.
Now, again, knowing that the dog wouldn't protect me, but I just kind of that buddy, I would feel a little safer. I would feel like people might think twice before they wanted to come and do me any harm. And so I ended up getting my dog the summer between my freshman and sophomore year in college. And to me, and I always will tell people this, having a dog in college is the best time of your life. If you're going to get a dog and try it out...
Danielle McCann:
Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
That is a fantastic time to do it because at least for me, I was walking all over the place.
Danielle McCann:
Yes.
Melissa Riccobono:
I was on the move all the time. I had places I had to go, my dog got tons of work. I also had tons of energy back then. So I was always doing things and traveling to other places eventually with my dog and working summer jobs and all sorts of things. And it just worked out beautifully and I loved it. And eventually I did decide to get another dog because I was then in Baltimore and kind of felt like in a bigger city with my small child at the time, that again, the dog wouldn't protect me, but I felt a little bit safer, I felt a little bit more confident, and so I decided to get a second dog. So very kind of the same, similar reasons for sure.
Danielle McCann:
Yeah, it's interesting. I'll just share really quickly. So I think the final straw for me was I was walking home to my dorm from the library on campus and I walked so slowly because the sidewalks were not great, and there was a couple of dirt paths we had to walk on. And I remember getting disoriented and these guys came up to me standing on a corner and they were like, one of them tried to grab my cane and another one was like, "We'll show you where our apartment is, we'll take you to our apartment and then we can get you to your dorm after that."
And I was getting a little bit scared and thankfully my friend John saw me from across the street or wherever and he's like, "Oh, there you are, Danielle, I was looking for you." And so I got back to my room that night and I was like, "Okay, the dog is going to help me keep moving faster so I'm not poking along. It's going to help me move faster, it's going to make me feel more confident." And yeah, I also went for my first dog between freshmen and sophomore year.
Melissa Riccobono:
Got it. So we kind of talked about why people got guide dogs. Raul, what are your favorite parts about working a dog?
Raul Gallegos:
I maintain a private relationship with my dog in the sense that if you were to look at my social media posts or even friends who talk to me, there's people who are surprised to find out that I even have a guide dog. It's not that I hide him or keep him a secret or anything, but I'm not as vocal or outward about all the playtime and the relationship that I have with him. I'm very firm about when he's guiding, he is a mobility tool, and yeah, he's a companion. But when he's at home, he plays, he's a puppy.
We often joke that he is a tem-year-old going on two (Melissa chuckles) kind of thing just because of his attitude and all that. So what's really fun for me and what I really like and what I really enjoy are while I can do these things with a cane, it is nice to, especially if I'm traveling in an airport, it is nice to be able to get to the escalator on the first try without having to do a little more structured discovery and whatnot.
It is nice to be able to just quickly be able to tell him, find the door, go outside or whatever, and he'll direct there, especially in those new areas where I may not know and need to ask someone, "Hey, can you point to or direct me to where the door is because maybe I can't hear it where it's opening" or whatnot. So those kinds of things, and again, it goes back to my reason is I wanted to enhance the travel. So those are the kinds of things that I really like and enjoy by having a guide dog.
Melissa Riccobono:
Great. Meghan, what about you?
Meghan Whalen:
I think I touched on a little bit before, just the teamwork. I really enjoy the need, be constantly accountable. I don't know if that makes sense, but knowing I'm part of something bigger than just me and that I have to show up for both of us. I like once we are really established in our teamwork, I jokingly call it passive mode, but that's not really what it is. When we get out and go for a walk and it's just kind of like I almost can think about where I want to go when we get there.
Just the very subtle communication you can develop just a kind of shrug of your shoulder to indicate which way you want to turn and all of that elegant, effortless movement together I think is what I really enjoy the most. And like Raul, I also, not that I don't talk about my dog at all, but she's definitely my working partner and I don't have a preference that people really engage with her much when she's out. The biggest compliment for me is when I get up to leave somewhere and people say, "Oh, I didn't know there was a dog under the table."
Raul Gallegos:
Oh, me too. I love that.
Danielle McCann:
Yeah, that's great. That's a great feeling.
Meghan Whalen:
Yeah, it's always my goal and that's how I want them all to be.
Melissa Riccobono:
Danielle, what about you? What is it like for you to work with a dog?
Danielle McCann:
I feel like everything Meghan is saying is just spot on, Meghan when you said that it's elegant, it really is. It's like a dance, particularly on the sidewalks here in Baltimore. It's like you just bob and weave between trash cans and people and bicycles and cracks in the sidewalk and whatever there is. And it's just you get to that sweet spot in your relationship where you just know you've got each other and it really is a team effort.
I will also say though, that I am such a big poster on social media about all my animals, but I give them little voices and personalities, and I am really, when it comes to in real life situations, of course we keep it professional, but I think it's fun to kind of give them little stories or things like that on social media. Man, we're just learning so much already during this episode. Should we go ahead and take a paws (pause) (Melissa and Danielle laugh).
Melissa Riccobono:
That sounds like a great idea. You're listening to the Nation's Blind Podcast.
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Danielle McCann:
Welcome back to the Nation's Blind Podcast. My name's Danielle McCann, filling in for Anil Lewis, here with Melissa Riccobono, Raul Gallegos and Meghan Whalen. And Meghan, I have a question for you. I just admire so much the work that you do with the dogs and I would love to know what has your experience been like as a guide dog trainer?
Meghan Whalen:
It's been incredibly rewarding. I love raising the puppies and teaching them and building them up for a future. The way I do it is I work with the individual to select the dog and then stay in touch with them as I raise the puppy through and train them. And then we do placement together. And the most incredible moment is that first time when I hand the leash and harness over to them and I say, "Okay, stay forward." And that dog takes off and it just gives me goosebumps every time. So it's just awesome to hear about what they're out and doing and the impact they're making in their people's lives. Especially as a guide dog handler myself, I understand exactly what I'm giving them and just how critical it is that that dog is as close to impeccable as they can be.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow. And what kind of techniques do you use? Because it's always been fascinating. I'm too lazy, I think to be an owner trainer (Melissa laughs). I mean, everybody has their things that they're good at. I loved working a dog. I cannot imagine taking it from puppy to guide dog. I was very happy to have the school do that for me both times. And so what kind of techniques do you use as a blind trainer?
Meghan Whalen:
So I teach them a lot of their body awareness very young. So I teach them all the turns and things when they're really little. So I have that to my advantage once we start harness work. But I start out in an area that I know incredibly well and as puppies, I regularly take them out just for exercise walks on the first routes we're going to train on so that we're both very familiar with them and kind of know the pattern of them. And then I build up to new environments. So I usually, I'd say at least the first ten workouts, I have the harness in my left hand and my cane and the leash in my right hand. So I'm kind of "holding hands" with them so I have the leash in my right hand to kind of feel how they're moving, if they're turning their head and shoulders a lot and getting distracted and if they're staying in a straight line so I can reward position and things like that.
And then I can start to feel, if I'm starting to indicate to them that I want them to turn left, I can feel as they start looking for that turn and reward that initiative. So that's how I start. And then once they're really pulling pretty well in the harness, I put away my cane stay in an area again that I know really well and kind of put my safety in a little bit of faith. And (Meghan laughs) we start working just with the dog guiding. I have either a folding or a telescopic cane with me so that if there's anything the dog needs support on, I can take it back out to work on that. But again, just really starting areas that I know very well. And then move to areas I don't know as well that are consistent, very straight block to block kind of city area.
And then we just build on that. And so I always have a cane with me in case I need to teach them things. And it's kind of a hybrid of sometimes they'll guide completely for a while and then we'll get into an area like, "Oh, we haven't done really crowded areas yet, so I'll just heal you and bring my cane back out and show you what you're going to do eventually. But right now I'm just going to let you come along and learn." And so there's kind of a three step process to each behavior. You show them what you want and you just do that on leash. So I'll walk them through the motions without them guiding me and then teach them.
So that's when I take the harness in my hand and the leash in my right hand and kind of feel how they're moving and then test. So then we'll go back and do it without the cane. And that's kind of just all the way through. I build on that three-step process. So I set up obstacles in my area, and then I have people set up obstacles for me so that I know that I'm not spoonfeeding what they need to do based on what I know I set up. And then with traffic training, I have a couple of friends who I trust to pretend to run us over in appropriate ways (Melissa and Danielle laugh) so that we can learn the correct responses.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow, that is so cool. And the benefits of you as a blind person training, it's sort of like the benefits of a blind person teaching travel to other blind people. It's very similar in my opinion, that you're already training that the dog is used to being with a blind person from very little. They're learning a bunch of different things. You're also, I'm sure, very strict with behaviors, what you will and won't tolerate. Where some puppy raisers, they're great, but they might bend the rules a little bit.
For example, my first dog was always allowed on beds and she was a bed hog and (Meghan laughs) we worked through it, but it was very clear that having her off the furniture was just a battle that I probably wasn't going to win unless I really wanted to work very, very hard at it. And to me, I just decided eventually that it didn't matter that much to me, and I kind of liked having her snuggle with me. Then I got married and of course (Meghan, Danielle and Melissa laugh) that changed a little bit. Anyway, but how cool, what a really cool story. And I don't know, have you ever thought about writing a book or writing articles or I just think your experiences would be really cool to hear about.
Meghan Whalen:
Yeah, one of my friends is like, "You should do that between two and four in the morning when you all the free time you have (Melissa and Danielle laugh)." And it's interesting too because I have raised them in tandem while I'm working at guide, so I've done that where my guide's on the left and the puppies on the right, and I've also raised them without a guide depending on where I'm at in my journey. And I haven't seen a significant difference as far as how quick they learn.
I think it helps a little bit, but habitually I just kind of teach them from very young to stop at stairs and even my pet dogs know just to stop at stairs, don't pull out ahead of me, wait till I've got it. And so when we start on harness work, it's like, we've been doing this your whole life and now it's up to you for it to happen rather than you're doing it because I've asked you to kind of thing.
So it's a really neat transition. I think the hardest part is going from "I'm teaching you things to I taught you and now I need to let you do your job. And if you're going to make a mistake, learn from those mistakes." That's the hardest part just with my current dog. I remember the first time I worked her in an airport and I was like, "I really hope you're as smart as I think you are, and I did as good as I think I did (Danielle and Melissa laugh), otherwise I'm going to be really embarrassed pretty soon." So yeah, it's always that leap of faith is always kind of the big jump. I guess.
Raul Gallegos:
I do not envy dog trainers (Meghan laughs), so thank you so much for (Danielle and Melissa laugh) taking that on.
Meghan Whalen:
Absolutely.
Raul Gallegos:
The most I've done is trained a little puppy with the house breaking stuff and the real basic stuff, and that was a lot of work, so thank you so much.
Danielle McCann:
Speaking of travel, and I know Meghan mentioned the airport, in last October, a bunch of us traveled to San Francisco for a rally and we wanted to protest the way that blind people who use guide dogs and white canes are discriminated against by rideshare drivers. And I wanted to ask Raul if you would tell us about the experience that you had being discriminated against the very night of the rally.
Raul Gallegos:
Some people would call that irony. I called it the job isn't done and we have a long ways to go. So the rally itself went really well overall, I thought. And sure enough, after our afternoon meeting, presidential live, we decided a bunch of us to, it was maybe about say eight of us or so to go have a dinner. Included in that group was President Riccobono and a few others, my wife, me, and yeah, I can't remember everybody. But anyway, so we were going to take two cars just because of the size of the group, a couple of XLs to make sure that everybody fit comfortably. First group took off fine with no issue, and second one, driver arrives, I did not let the driver know ahead of time that I was traveling with a guide dog. I usually don't. So he pulls up and as we're surrounding his car to get in, he gets out and starts, "No dog, no dog, no dog."
By the time that he was done getting distracted with me and the dog, my wife Stacey had gone in on the other side of the car and Mark Riccobono had also entered the car. There is a running joke that Stacey shoved Mark into the backseat to make sure that we filled up as much car as possible. Tim Elder was also with our group, so he sat in the front shotgun. So we have Tim in the front, Stacey in the middle seat, Mark in the backseat, and me on the outside there standing near trying to get in.
So this driver put his hands on me and he forcibly tried to push me away from the car. And so it was a very stressful situation in that sense. I'm the kind of person that tends to, I don't like just being grabbed. I mean, who does? But I tend to want to twist my arm back and twist somebody's wrist if they just grab me all of a sudden.
But that didn't happen, but he did put his hands on me. And my thing is the dog is going to stress if you're stressed, the dog, especially if you have a really good close relationship with your dog, you're a very nice working team. And even if you aren't, but especially if you are, that dog's going to pick up on your stress. And one of the last things I want to do is add stress to my dog. He's already stressing enough because he's guiding. So for me, I maintain my cool.
Plus that's why I have my wife around. She is my voice for me (Raul and Danielle laugh) sometimes. So I was trying to be civil with this guy and explain to him why he was legally obligated to give us this ride and yada, yada, yada. Anyway, long story short, he flat out refused. So a few folks went ahead and got another Uber ride.
We agreed that, "Hey, go on ahead. I'm going to deal with this." And so the police were involved. And so the police officer came eventually. I think it took him like forty minutes or so. So in the meantime, I kept telling this guy, I said, "It's only a five minute ride and you are missing out on business here by wasting your time and my time on this, why not just give us a ride and just get it over with? You'll probably never see me again." "No, no dog, no dog, no dog."
"Okay, well, we will wait." And so waited it out. The police officer was nice, but not super informed in terms of how to enforce anything. And so we ended up filing a police report and Lyft did their thing. They gave me a $5 credit, "Sorry about your trouble, get another ride," and all this other stuff.
So the police report is still in the system, still dealing with that. And as far as that night, we eventually got another ride. No issues with the next one. And I don't know how or why, but I really thank everybody for doing this. Everybody who was already there at the restaurant, they actually waited to eat until we got there. So that was a lot. I am really thankful for that. So we got there, shared the story. We stayed there late enough where we actually closed the restaurant out, and there were a couple more Uber and Lyft rides there and back and stuff like that. And no issues except for that one.
It's random when it happens. It's stressful when it happens and you wish it didn't happen. For some people, it happens a lot more than others. There's so many random factors involved. And I think that at least what works for me is maintaining as professional of a cool as I can is good. You don't want to be that person who flies off the handle if you can help it, you're listened to more if you try to stay calm, I think. So our work continues and it's far from being over.
Melissa Riccobono:
It certainly does. Wow. I mean, did the guy realize, Tim Elder's a lawyer. He had a lawyer in his front seat.
Raul Gallegos:
Oh we told him (Melissa laughs) he did not care.
Melissa Riccobono:
I know. I know. Aww, I know.
Raul Gallegos:
This person. And here's the thing, and different guide dog users have different opinions on this. And so I'm not the majority at all when I say this, and this is my personal opinion, not NAGDU's in any way. I feel that a lot of it is lack of education or fear of dogs, and they don't understand. The other part is you have all these people taking their counterfeit service animals, pets into these cars, and so they don't help. And so at least for me and for Stacey, it's been our experience that a lot of times if we talk to the driver and help educate more often than not for us, that has worked.
Obviously not always considering what happened here. I mean, we had another incident too, Christmas time a few years ago. We were late for a family Christmas dinner because a guy waited. He held out forty-five minutes in our driveway. In the end, he ended up giving in and Uber, bless their hearts, they actually told him what to do correctly. And so he took us under duress (Raul and Danielle laugh). So every outcome is different, but it's something that we have to deal with. And like I said, it keeps going on.
Melissa Riccobono:
It's really sad because that is a big reason that I don't have a dog. There are other reasons. I had some medical stuff I had to work through. I also do a lot more work from home. And so I do worry that a dog might not get as much work or that I would have to make sure that I'm really being very, oh, I can't think of the word at the moment, but that I'm actually making sure that the dog is getting enough work. Because I feel like if you have a dog that's so, so important. And also sort of that bonding time that it does take until you become that really awesome team where it is just beautiful (Melissa laughs), that time can be a little bit frustrating.
Raul Gallegos:
Right.
Melissa Riccobono:
And so I don't know that I really at this point want to deal with all of that, but an overarching feeling is it does make me happy to know that the majority of the time when I call an Uber or Lyft, I'm going to get picked up. Now, that's not always true. Sometimes people see my cane and they drive away.
Raul Gallegos:
We're starting to see more and more of that.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, but at least I don't have to fight as far as a dog. I don't have to talk about the law. I don't have to file the police reports. I don't have to do all those things. And my experience was, it would always happen at the absolute worst possible time.
Danielle McCann:
Yes!
Melissa Riccobono:
I remember one time it was a super windy, cold day. I had all three of our kids with me, Elizabeth, maybe seven or eight months, and Oriana would've been like two and a half, and Cynthia would've been a little over five. And we had just come out of the doctor. Elizabeth had a really bad ear infection and a fever, and all I wanted to do was get to the pharmacy, which was just a few blocks away, but I didn't want to walk because it was cold. And I didn't want Elizabeth out any longer than she had to be and just pick up her medicine and just get home.
That's all I wanted to do. And of course, that was the time (laughs) that the driver denied me, and we had to wait longer. And I also have been late to IEP meetings and all sorts of different things because of drivers. And again, it always seemed like it was the worst possible time, and it always seemed like it was roulette. And as my dogs started to get more and more retired, I would sometimes make the choice, you know what? I'm just going to leave her home because I'm already running late. And if I have her and they say no, then that's just one more thing that's going to make me even later.
Danielle McCann:
Yeah.
Raul Gallegos:
It's sad that we have to adjust our schedule for that because I've done similar where if I have a certain appointment to get to where sometimes I might not take the dog or I might order my Uber thirty minutes sooner than I have to just...
Melissa Riccobono:
Sooner, yes!
Raul Gallegos:
Or circling back to when I mentioned, I don't usually tell the driver that I have a dog. If I want to try to just, let's just head it off at the beginning. I'll just say, "Just so you know, I'm traveling with the dog." And that way if they're going to cancel, they'll at least cancel early rather than me waiting the ten minutes until they get here. So I've done those things, but the sad thing is we shouldn't have to, one of the reasons why somebody may not get another guide dog is where that's factored in because of the whole discrimination. That should not be one of the reasons. And I'm seeing it more and more, and that does make me sad.
Melissa Riccobono:
And that people don't even get their first one.
Raul Gallegos:
Yup.
Melissa Riccobono:
Because they just think, "Oh my gosh, this is just too difficult."
Danielle McCann:
Yeah, exactly. It's built on misconceptions and just misinformation and not knowing.
Melissa Riccobono:
Definitely. So the next question that we have, and we'll start with Meghan, what is something that you wish the general public knew about your guide dog? There's probably more than one thing (laughs), but if you had to pick one or two, what would those things be?
Meghan Whalen:
That she loves her job and she wouldn't be doing it if she didn't.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh, that's a good one.
Meghan Whalen:
Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow. That was not where I thought you'd go (Meghan laughs). That is an awesome one.
Meghan Whalen:
Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah. So true, so true.
Meghan Whalen:
Yeah, she's a really aloof dog. And so if someone does try to pet her, she backs up there, "They're like, oh, she's scared, she's shy." I'm like, "No, she doesn't want your hands on her. It doesn't mean she hates her job. It means she wants you to leave her alone." I wish people understood that better, but it's only the ones who love it that are doing it.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow and especially because the trainer. So you're going to pick up very quickly if there's a dog that really isn't cut out for the work.
Meghan Whalen:
Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
So yeah. Wow. Raul, how about you?
Raul Gallegos:
Which one to pick? What I wish people would know is that my dog does not brush my teeth, comb my hair (Danielle and Melissa laugh), pick out my clothes, the list.
Melissa Riccobono:
That's where I thought Meghan was going to go.
Raul Gallegos:
Yeah, the list goes on. But you get it. It's in that category. I mean, "Oh, that dog is so wonderful. He takes good care of you (Danielle laughs). And I used to get that about my kids, my sighted daughter. I got that about my dog. I mean, it just gets old, old, old, old. That's the one that really stands out.
Melissa Riccobono:
Danielle, do you have one?
Danielle McCann:
Yeah, I would say that I wish that the public knew, man, I'm still stuck on Raul's because that's such a big one, but I wish that the public knew that I was the brains of the operation. She is the entity that keeps me safe, but I still have to know where we're going. I have to be the one to judge traffic.
Melissa Riccobono:
Absolutely. And the dog doesn't read street signs. The dog can't bark at you to, the dog doesn't talk. I mean, it's pretty amazing what people actually, the things that come out of their mouths. And then I have to, when I did use a dog, it was always sort of that I didn't want to be mean, but sometimes I just, one time there was somebody on the bus and I don't remember what he said, and I said, "But my dog, even if she could read signs, how would she tell me (Danielle laughs), she doesn't talk?" And it blew his mind completely. Oh, wow. I never thought of that (Melissa laughs).
Danielle McCann:
Wow. There's also another thing that, at least for me, I wish that when the public saw us give corrections, because there is that balance of correction and love, and when you are correcting, you are keeping those boundaries up. And it's a safety thing. And the public will see you pop a leash or say your correction word and "Oh, you're horrible. That lady was beating her dog or whatever."
Melissa Riccobono:
Abusive, yes!
Danielle McCann:
And I have gotten to the point where they're like, "I'm going to call your school." And I say, "Okay, the phone number is (Danielle and Melissa laugh)," but I just wish that they knew that there is just so much love and praise that goes into the work. So that ten second correction that you're seeing is not the way that the dog's life is always going.
Raul Gallegos:
Do we have time for a quick story?
Melissa Riccobono:
Sure.
Raul Gallegos:
The middle of the pandemic, our friends, from Colorado came to, well, they come here every year, but anyway, so we took them to tour the Johnson Space Center. And so they've got all kinds of really cool stuff, rocket ships, planes, all kinds of things that you can go in on and stuff like that. So my dog and I hadn't really done a lot of traveling because of the pandemic, so he was a little out of practice. And so I ran into a rocket ship. He fit, and it was the tail end of one of the mercury rocket ships. And so I hit my forehead right above my eye, bleeding, and I'm thinking, there's people all around and they're about to witness a correction and a redo and all kinds of stuff.
But so I corrected the dog and it wasn't like, I mean, we're not talking, it was a correction, he [doesn't] gets flipped on his back or anything like that. It was just a regular correction. Nobody flipped out. But it's like one of those things where I knew the same people were kind of watching throughout this whole thing. So what happened is I corrected him and then we redid it. I told him to walk the same way he was walking, and sure enough, he went around and I praised him up big time, the biggest praise ever kind of thing.
And one of my friends told me, they said, "Yeah, there was a people who was just watching the whole time and they saw it from the accident all the way to" whatever. Consequently, I ended up wearing a cookie monster bandage (Melissa and Danielle laugh) because that's what another person had available. I'm like, "I will take it." And from the rest of that day on anytime there was any sort of overhang, my dog would circle around six feet away from it.
Danielle McCann:
Aww.
Raul Gallegos:
Like oh, I remember those things.
Melissa Riccobono:
Good puppy.
Raul Gallegos:
But it was one of those things where it was as much of an education to the public I thought as well as a reminder to him like, "Hey, I know we haven't been doing a lot of this lately, but you really have to look up as well." And it was a fun time overall despite that little minor, that little minor mishap.
Melissa Riccobono:
But that's really so important. And that's why if you want to get a guide dog, those types of things, being willing to correct. And then the redo, those are so important, especially in the beginning because the dog's really testing you wanting to see, they know what their trainer expects. They want to know that you expect the same things. And some dogs are more of a tester than other dogs. It just depends on their personality.
Danielle McCann:
They're willful. They're willful (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
They're willful. Some of them are very willful, and some of them are almost too smart for their own good.
Danielle McCann:
Yes!
Melissa Riccobono:
And my trainers have always joked about that, that there are some dogs that "I get to the curb, I stop, I go across the street, I get to the curb, I stop." Other dogs are, "Oh, well, when we get to this curb, we always cross this way. And then she always wants me to turn and cross the other way, so I may as well just cut it." And because they're smart, I don't know, I don't want to say smarter, but they're thinking ahead. They're processing that in a different way, and maybe they're just lazy.
I don't know, (laughs) like, "Oh, I could walk this many feet instead of this many." But those are the kinds of things that, especially as a brand new guide dog team, you have to be so diligent about, and that's why it's so important to continue to work your dog and to develop those things.
And they say it takes three months to maybe up to a year to really become that solid, that solid, solid team. And so those are the things that I always feel like, I don't think people really realize. It's wonderful work and it's awesome work. And mostly it's fun work, right? Because you're gaining that trust, you're gaining that partnership. But they can be hard days. I mean, at least for me, there have been tears at times where I feel like I'm going backward, this dog and I aren't, especially going from my first to my second.
Of course, that was a big adjustment. "My first always did this so perfectly and you don't do it, and why don't you do it?" But I think that's really part of what I wish both the general public and blind people knew that if you are committing to a guide dog, it truly is a commitment.
And it's not like a cane that can just sit in the corner and you pull out when you need it. It is something that you are responsible for. And it's not just that you're responsible for feeding it and taking it outside and keeping it clean and groomed so it's very presentable public and keeping up those behaviors and that obedience. But you're also really responsible for shaping what you're going to tolerate from your dog and what you're not and how you're going to react when things like that happen.
Because dogs are just dogs, they're going to make mistakes. And how you react really does set the tone. And is your dog going to get really bad habits because, "Oh, it's okay. She walked me into that, but it's been a long time. It's fine. I'll just correct her a little bit and I'm not going to rework it. I'm tired," or is it, "Nope, if I don't do it this time, it's going to just become more of a problem."
Raul Gallegos:
It'll develop a habit.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah!
Meghan Whalen:
Absolutely. I had one trainer say to me once, and I think it really stuck with me, when you first bring a guide dog home, you have a dog who's been trained in guide work, and then it's your responsibility to teach them how to be a guide dog.
Melissa Riccobono:
I like that.
Meghan Whalen:
To really understand the nuance and transition from "This is a fun thing I do a couple times a day to this is a responsibility and a huge, it's a very specific task."
Raul Gallegos:
And one thing that one of my trainer friends said to me, and I never forgot, he says, "You can put a guide into a dog, but you can never take the dog out of the guide."
Melissa Riccobono:
A guide.
Raul Gallegos:
So ultimately, there's still going to be dogs. And I think understanding that psychology will really help enforce that teamwork together where there's people who I see that will freak out, "Well, my dog keeps sniffing. Well, yes, it's a dog, it's going to sniff." What do you do about that? Or how do you redirect that if necessary? There's social acceptableness of when they sniff or start doing whatever, and there's times that, but you work with that, but you're not going to be able to tell a dog, "Hey, stop sniffing."
So I think understanding those things is really key. And I think a lot of times, first time guide dog users don't get that unless they've been dog people all their lives or whatever. I know, I certainly didn't, my experience with my current dog compared to my first dog is you can't compare because I was a lot younger. I didn't really know a lot about some of the stuff I know now. And I often wonder, how is it that I lasted so long with my first guide dog (Raul and Melissa laugh)?
Danielle McCann:
Yeah, same. She was very forgiving because (Melissa laughs) woah, I didn't know what I was doing at all.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, no, that's a really good point. And that's another thing to think about if you're thinking about getting a guide dog, just what do you know about dogs? Have you been around dogs? Do you like dogs? My sister always says, "I will never get a dog. I don't like dogs." It's like, well, fine, then you don't have to get a dog. It's a completely a choice. And I mean, she was always gracious when I would bring my dog to visit and everything else, but I also really tried as much as I could to make sure my dog was on her best behavior, kept her on leash with me, didn't just let her wander around my sister's house because my sister's not a dog person.
And that's sort of when people say, "Oh, this person should get a dog." Maybe they should, maybe they shouldn't. I always tell people, have really good cane skills first. Also realize what the dog will or will not do for you and only get a dog if you ultimately feel like it is best for you. And it is okay if you go, I had a few classmates that decided they were in class and they just said, you know what? "This isn't what I thought it was going to be." They ended up leaving and I just felt like, well, good for them. They tried it out and they, instead of going home and trying to make it work, they just said, nope. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's sometimes the only way you're really going to know.
Danielle McCann:
Okay. I have a question for the group and for those who are listening who may be scratching your head saying, "Well, this is an NFB podcast (Melissa laughs) and we're talking about guide dogs? I thought the NFB was not supportive of guide dogs, or I heard that there was an issue of the Braille Monitor years ago where the Federation was strongly against guide dogs. Let's address that elephant or dog in the room (Melissa laughs). Melissa, do you have thoughts?
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, I do, and I would say first of all, the Braille Monitor that it's from October of 1995. It's thirty years old okay, and even when that issue was published, there were many different points of view that were in the issue. And there was the National Association of Guide Dog Users was a division even at that time of the National Federation of the Blind. So you can't really say that the NFB as a whole, I don't believe has ever been against guide dogs. Now, I went down a rabbit hole, a dog path (Melissa laughs), I don't know what to call it.
And because I've been hearing about this October 1995 issue of the Braille Monitor, pretty much from the time I joined the NFB in 1998 and have never actually read it myself. So I Googled it, it came up right away, and I decided I wanted to read Dr. Jernigan's article because I wanted to hear and decide for myself what he did or did not say. And I have not quite finished the article. It's a little bit lengthy, and I ran out of time before this podcast.
But what I can say is, yeah, I mean in the article, he makes it pretty gosh darn clear that at least for him for sure, there's no way that he would use a guide dog. And he definitely makes it clear that he really does believe that dogs can very much inconvenience others. He gives an example of dog's toenails at somebody's house, scratched a very pretty polished wood floor, and the floor had to be refinished at a pretty exorbitant cost. And he talked about somebody at a banquet where their dog got sick right near the banquet platform and the table had to be moved and everybody else had to move, and the smell was not really very pleasant.
And his whole thing is those types of things do inconvenience others. And in his opinion, there was really no argument that you could make to him, (chuckles) it seems like, that would have him say that that's not the case. The other thing is though, he's Dr. Jernigan, but he's one person. Okay yes, he is a very important person in the National Federation of Blind history. He's still just one person. And he edited this issue of the Braille Monitor, and there are many articles with many different opinions in it. And he even says, I really disagree with some of the viewpoints in these articles, but we as a movement have to make our own decisions. And so I don't know. I can understand it can be very harsh, and I think part of it is you can't take the dog out of the guide dog like Raul said.
And so people do get very attached to their dogs. It's not like a cane. I mean, I love my cane. I get sad when it breaks, but I'll just get a new cane. It's going to be okay (laughs). My dogs, both of them died. It was very sad choosing to retire them. Very difficult if they got sick, you worried, and you have this living being in your life. And so there are some people that anything that goes at all against that very special bond they feel with their dog, they right away get very defensive and very emotional about it. So I don't know what the answer is, aside from, I have never, and I was a guide dog user and still a guide dog user when Mark was elected president of the NFB and never felt like I was looked down upon in the NFB because I chose to have a dog.
And I knew people like Diane McGeorge, Priscilla Ferris, who were NFB, national board members, state presidents, they had dogs. And I don't know what the answer is. I do know it's the lure. And I guess I would just really encourage people, if you kind of wonder what it's all about, take a chance. Read that article, read the whole issue or read whatever parts really interest you. But also remember that was thirty years ago, but we do have NAGDU, and Raul, what does NAGDU do (laughs) to help people who are guide dog users?
Raul Gallegos:
One of the things that we do with NAGDU is I get a lot of calls from people who, "Hey, I have this pet and we want to train it as a dog, a guide dog." Or "I have a parent who just went blind yesterday" kind of thing (Melissa laughs), and they should get a dog.
Melissa Riccobono:
They need a dog right away (laughs).
Raul Gallegos:
They need a dog right now, right? I'm like, "Well, do they know how to travel with a cane?" "No, but why would they want to? They can get a dog," that kind of stuff. "What kind of dog is it?" Oh, "It's a chihuahua (Melissa laughs)."
Danielle McCann:
Oh!
Raul Gallegos:
I'm like, so I wish I was making this up, but I really do get these questions. But when I do have a really good, serious conversation and when the person really wants to hear me out, one of the things that I do is I talk to them about independence, blindness training, and talk about our schools and talk about their acceptance of blindness and all the stuff that has nothing to do with guide dogs.
And some people listen to me and some people are like, "Well, I wanted to talk about the dog so goodbye. You're not talking to me about that." As a division, the division is neutral when it comes to people's choices on whether you are going to be a guide dog user or not. You can be a member of NAGDU, even if you're not a guide dog user. It's just like you can be a member of the NFB even if you're a sighted person. You know what I mean? So we don't discriminate that way. You do have to be a guide dog user if you're going to be president or vice president.
But for membership, anybody can be a member. And we don't pick favorites over which training program you go with or whether you own or train, whether you pay someone privately to train your dog. We don't care. We're going to try to provide the information that people want, and we're going to work in the advocacy area that's going to benefit all guide dog users, regardless of whether the person trained their own dog or got it from school A, B, or C. We tell people, shop around. There's going to be training programs that you look at that do things that you absolutely disagree with. Well, then don't go with them.
There's more than twenty to pick from in this country. If you really want to go with the school to train the dog for you. If all the schools are not up to what you want in a guide dog then either train it yourself or hire a private trainer or find a private trainer who can train one to your specifications. But NAGDU can't tell you, "Oh, this school's better than the others." So we teach people to ask questions and that's really I think one of our biggest things, especially in the last five years that we've really tried to push toward.
Melissa Riccobono:
I really agree. And I think the other thing that the NFB has done well is we don't play favorites when it comes to schools. And that means that we also advocate when necessary to try to help schools see when maybe some of their fundraising materials are somewhat questionable or when they don't allow people, or they allow people to own their dog, but then they take it away at the drop of a hat. I mean, there definitely have been cases over the years and resolutions over the years where the NFB has gotten involved with some of the schools.
And we can do that because we don't play favorites. And we can be a voice to say, "Look, we're about guide dogs and we're about choice, but we're also for blind people. As President Riccobono would say, "We're partisan for blind people (Melissa and Raul laugh)." And so if a school's doing something that's going to harm blind people, then we have something to say about that. For sure.
Danielle McCann:
Exactly. Alright, I have another question specifically for Meghan and Raul first, and then Melissa, I would love to hear your thoughts too. So we asked some social media questions and one of them being, what is the cutest guide dog name that you've ever heard? So Meghan, you're up first. What's the cutest one you've ever heard?
Meghan Whalen:
I am slightly biased, but I think I had a dog named Zesty, and I thought that was pretty cute. It fit her personality perfectly (Melissa and Danielle laugh).
Danielle McCann:
I love that zesty. Raul?
Raul Gallegos:
I have to say, I am going to be biased when I say this, but Stacey's former dog, his name was Cash (Melissa laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
Show me the money (laughs).
Raul Gallegos:
That was the best name. So here's the funny thing about that. Everybody said, "Oh, cash liked the money." And with me, I love Johnny Cash music. So to me it was, "Oh, he's the man in black. He is a black lab." It was kind of a curmudgeon, but when I met him, he was a little older...
Danielle McCann:
Aww (laughs).
Raul Gallegos:
And stuff like that. So he and I were pals and it wouldn't be unheard of for me to be listening to some Johnny Cash while me and Cash were just kind of hanging out. And so I've heard some interesting names, but really that one does kind of stand out.
Melissa Riccobono:
I love that. I always loved Fanta, although I always had to say Fanta like the soda, because some people would think it was Santa (laughs) and like ho, ho, ho (laughs). And once I was called Misty and my dog Santa (laughs).
Danielle McCann:
Oh my gosh.
Melissa Riccobono:
Anyway, yeah, it was pretty funny. And I never had had Fanta soda before I got Fanta the Puppy, and then I had eventually had to have Fanta soda when I found it at an airport just to say that I'd had it. So I don't know. She was my first...
Raul Gallegos:
Did you have orange?
Melissa Riccobono:
I did have orange. Yes, yes.
Danielle McCann:
That's the best kind.
Raul Gallegos:
That's the one.
Danielle McCann:
That's the one.
Melissa Riccobono:
Anyway. But I'm sure there's other ones. Maura from Nebraska says that she thinks her dog named Jojo is the best name ever and she will not accept any debates (Danielle laughs), but she's also seen Spreckles, Jobba, Jette with an "e," J-E-T-T-E. That's pretty cool. Dasher, Hoagie, that's funny, Isha and Sunny. Aw, Sunny's a sweet name.
Danielle McCann:
Aww, that's cute.
Melissa Riccobono:
And then Maryanne from Massachusetts says she was at a seminar with guide dog and there was a woman there raising a puppy, and the puppy's name was Ruffles (laughs).
Danielle McCann:
I love that.
Raul Gallegos:
That is cool.
Melissa Riccobono:
A cute name.
Danielle McCann:
I just have to throw mine in. So I've heard of Pepsi and Video.
Melissa Riccobono:
Video.
Danielle McCann:
Yeah, I've heard of a Video, but I am super duper partial. I think Schultz is super cute. And when I first heard it, I must've made a face. My trainer was like, "No, I swear, I swear it fits him and he is definitely a Schultz."
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, it has been amazing to talk to all of you about your guide dogs and your experiences and I don't know, Meghan, do you have anything that you want to add in closing? Anything else that we didn't ask you about or anything else you'd like to share?
Meghan Whalen:
No, I don't think so. I think we've covered everything I think is important.
Melissa Riccobono:
Okay. How about you, Raul?
Raul Gallegos:
So once again, thank you for having us on, but I would like to add that I think it's important for anybody, and we've kind of touched on this kind of throughout, is, especially if you're really thinking about getting a guide dog for the first time, is try not to think of all the positive stuff that you see. What I would call the YouTube moments, those perfect street crossings, the perfect, let's find the door the first time kind of thing. You want to think of all the other things that you are going to have to do.
Get up at five in the morning at Washington Seminar when it's twenty-five degrees to go take the dog out (Melissa laughs), walk ten minutes at National Convention just to go take the dog out or more. Those kinds of things. Are you in a snow environment? Watch out for your dogs, the health of your dog's paws in extreme weather conditions, whether it's snow or over here in Houston. So you have to modify your travel accordingly. So there's all these things there. By no means a negative thing, but there are things that people need to be aware of, I think. So that's really important for people to think about.
Melissa Riccobono:
And if people have questions, they can come to NAGDU seminars at convention, right. I'm guessing you're having at least a couple?
Raul Gallegos:
Yes. a seminar and a business meeting. And so we'll be around.
Melissa Riccobono:
Fantastic. Danielle, any closing thoughts for you?
Danielle McCann:
Yeah, speaking of convention, I just want to say when you're planning your convention schedule, plan breaks and plan some decompression time for your dogs because they're all put, I mean, if we as humans are all put in an extreme situation, so are they so be kind, love on them, de-stress them. Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh, absolutely. If they're chewers, bring up bone.
Danielle McCann:
Yes!
Melissa Riccobono:
Make sure they get plenty of water and food and time to go outside, time to relieve. I mean, I always felt when I was a dog user, it is so much better to be late to a meeting and have a dog that's going to be able to sit through that meeting and not have an accident than it is that I have to rush. And I just, kind of like having a kid, sometimes I was going to work out perfect and everything was going to be great and I was going to get there on time.
And other times, you know what? I just wasn't. And that had to be okay, even if it wasn't ideal. And very much like what Raul said, if I got stressed about it, then of course my dog would just get more stressed and so that is such a good point. Well man, this has been awesome. I'm just so glad, Danielle, that you were able to co-host, you added a lot to this discussion and I'm kind of getting the little dog itch again. Maybe at some point (laughs).
Danielle McCann:
Uh oh.
Melissa Riccobono:
I'll be applying to schools, but we'll see. The Nation's Blind Podcast is taking a break or convention season. We will return at the end of the summer. We hope you enjoy your summer and look forward to bringing you new content in the fall. Remember, you can live the life you want. Blindness is not what holds you back.
Announcer:
We'd love your feedback. Email podcast@nfb.org or call 410-659-9314, extension 2444.