Announcer:
Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast, presented by the National Federation of the Blind, the transformative membership and advocacy organization of blind Americans. Live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono:
Hello and welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast. I'm Melissa Riccobono, and I'm not here with Anil Lewis, but I'm here with another wonderful person that I am pleased to be able to call a friend, Chris Danielson. How are you, Chris?
Chris Danielsen:
I'm fine, Melissa, and it's great to be back on the podcast with you. I don't get to do this as much anymore, but it's always lots of fun.
Melissa Riccobono:
It is fun. And tell the folks at home, just in case they don't know what your new/not quite as new (chuckles) job in the NFB is these days.
Chris Danielsen:
Yeah (chuckles), so it's been almost a year now, crazily enough, but I am the editor of the Braille Monitor, which is of course the flagship magazine of the Blind People's Movement, and I am privileged to have that job. I get to edit our magazine and get the news out to all our Federation family and meet lots of cool people through their writing and interviews and all that kind of stuff. So it's a great gig.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow. So kind of like the podcast just in a little bit of a different way.
Chris Danielsen:
Right, just a little bit different format.
Melissa Riccobono:
So it is Fall and it is back to school. And let me ask you, Chris, when you were going to school, both high school and let's kind of focus it on college since this episode has more to do with college and advocacy in that space, but when you were going to college, did you ever think that you might be either sitting down with somebody co-hosting a podcast and/or editing a flagship magazine for a nonprofit organization? Were those on your radar?
Chris Danielsen:
No, not at all. When I started college, I had just started to get involved in the Federation, and so I didn't really know where that was going to lead, and I was frankly more worried about college at the time (Melissa laughs) and at the risk of dating myself, podcasts weren't even a thing yet.
Melissa Riccobono:
(Laughs) So true.
Chris Danielsen:
They weren't even close to being a thing (laughs). So I never thought I would be co-hosting a podcast either. How about yourself?
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, let's back up for just a second. What was your major in college? What did you imagine yourself doing? And then I will tell you what I imagine myself doing.
Chris Danielsen:
Okay. So I imagined myself being a lawyer and my major turned out to be political science. I was waffling between English and political science, but I finally decided on political science. I thought that was probably better preparation for law school and it was okay preparation for law school.
And then of course I went on to pursue my graduate degree, my law degree, and then I was a lawyer for a little while, but now I'm a recovering lawyer (Melissa laughs) and editor of the Braille Monitor. So I didn't really see all that coming at the time. I didn't see the career change and all that down the line. I thought I would go into law or politics and that would be what would happen.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, so I mean, interestingly enough, kind of very similar for me. Not the law part, but I went to college...
Chris Danielsen:
Law may or may not come up later in the episode as well.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, that's true (Melissa and Chris laugh). Absolutely. So my degree, my undergrad is in psychology and my graduate degree is in counseling psychology with an emphasis in school counseling. And I was a school counselor for a while and really did love it, but then I had my children and just didn't really feel right about counseling other people's children and somebody else kind of raising mine though I've always thought, and I do sort of have some regrets that I didn't make the time to stay current with my license because now that the kids are back in school, or not back in school, but in school, they're teenagers, one's a young adult.
I am not needed in the same ways here at home. And if I were to go back to work in kind of a traditional place, I would love to go back in a school. But I've also thought that early childhood would be the best thing ever. I would love to work with itty bitty blind kids and itty bitty kids with all kinds of disabilities and just help their families have those high expectations, learn to play and let their kids explore and all those wonderful things.
But no, podcasts weren't a thing in college. Now, interestingly enough, I guess for both of us, sort of political science and law, you have to interview people, you have to ask questions, and counseling is kind of the same thing. So it seems far away, but in some ways it's not really as far, if you think about it, it's not really as far.
Chris Danielsen:
There are definitely some similarities and I'm like you, I don't have a ton of regrets. I don't really feel the need to get an active law license again. But I will say that I feel like my legal training has helped me even in my change of career because we do some legal and policy work in the Federation and I have to write about it sometimes. And so it's helpful to be able to read something like a legal complaint or a judge's opinion and analyze it. But enough about us. We have two actual students on our podcast today.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yes, we do. And why don't we let them introduce themselves and then we'll kind of talk to them about their journey. And as Chris said, legal stuff (clears throat) is going to be a part, unfortunately of this conversation. So, Chris, do ou want a certain student to go first?
Chris Danielsen:
Well, I am very old fashioned. Maybe this isn't a thing anymore, but I'm always for ladies first. So Miranda, do you want to introduce yourself and say what you're up to?
Miranda Lacy:
Sure. My name's Miranda Lacey, I'm 43 years old. I'm in my final year of graduate school at West Virginia University studying social work. I'm also a single blind parent to two teenage boys.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow.
Chris Danielsen:
Wow!
Melissa Riccobono:
You're busy (laughs).
Chris Danielsen:
You're busy (Chris and Melissa laugh, Miranda chuxkles). I think I'm busy, but okay. And a master's. Wow. So another graduate student.
Miranda Lacy:
Yes.
Great. And our other student, go ahead.
Harold Rogers:
So my name's Harold Rogers. I'm 34 and I'm also in my final year in the WVU online master's program. And I also sit on statewide in Infant Living Council. I'm a member of NFB of West Virginia.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow.
Chris Danielsen:
Wow.
Busy people. Busy people.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yes, absolutely. So Miranda, why don't we start with you and just sort of talk a little bit about your journey up to this point. Obviously if you're getting a graduate degree, that means that you have gotten an undergraduate degree at one time. And so do you just want to kind of talk us through your education journey in college?
Miranda Lacy:
Sure. My undergraduate degree is Virginia State University. Graduated in 2021 with an undergrad in psychology. I had extremely low vision when I returned to college in 2020 when I went back to finish my degree. And so I had to work with the university on accommodations. And then as you know, COVID happened in 2020, so a lot of things moved to online. So it was difficult, but I made it through.
Melissa Riccobono:
Got it. Harold, how about you?
Harold Rogers:
So I also am a graduate of Western State University. My undergraduate degree, however, is in social work. And I graduated with Miranda same year. We walked together and as Miranda mentioned, COVID kind of happened and a lot of our coursework was transitioned to online and the university had to, as many universities had to adapt to that, but they rose to the occasion and we made it work and we got through it.
Chris Danielsen:
So then I guess, so you both got through your college programs and then obviously both went into graduate school. So I guess we'll go back to Miranda to start. What if anything changed when you started pursuing your graduate degree?
Miranda Lacy:
So from the first year I applied for graduate school, I wasn't accepted and Harold was accepted, so he started a year before I did in the same program. And I did a lot of research before entering the program and I saw that the school had the division of excellence and disability, and so I thought it would be a good choice for me as far as being accommodated between graduating in 2021 with my undergrad and starting graduate school in 2023, I had a cataract surgery that took the rest of my remaining vision.
So I had a transition there. And so it was difficult, but I went full steam ahead and I wanted to start my graduate program. I didn't want blindness to hold me back from achieving my goals.
Chris Danielsen:
Okay. So full credit to you entering any graduate program is going to be intimidating, I would think. I was certainly intimidated by law school. And you were coming into it in a situation where you had lost your remaining eyesight, but you were determined to forge ahead.
Melissa Riccobono:
Correct. And just because you lost your remaining eyesight doesn't mean that you lost any of your smarts (chuckles) that you had. Any of the things that you gained from your undergraduate degree. I mean, obviously you were accepted into the program, so let's just be clear, you were ready to go, the university thought you were ready to go, and that we keep kind of beating around the bush, but I guess it kind of turned out not to be the case.
Harold, you started a year earlier, so while Miranda was sort of adjusting to her vision loss and everything else, what was going on in the program for you that maybe was making it difficult for you to compete equally with your sighted peers?
Harold Rogers:
Yeah, as Miranda mentioned, I started a year earlier at WVU and one of the reasons that I selected Western Virginia University is they happen to be the oldest school of social work at the MSW level that we have in the state. They also have partnership with HSRRA, the Health Services Research Resources Administration, and they look at rural integrated behavioral health.
And so that was another reason why that I chose WVU's program with their emphasis on integrated behavioral health. But immediately on entering into the program and getting into the coursework, I faced challenges with the learning management system, Blackboard and interacting with elements in my courses and activities and the assignments that required the clinical readings and the recommended articles that we have to read in graduate school in a clinical social work program, which is a pretty big part of it, were not accessible to me. And so that immediately became a problem.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, I would say if you're not able to read the readings, that's a pretty big problem.
Chris Danielsen:
Was this is surprise to you, I mean you've been at the same school, although not in the graduate program. I mean, how did it feel to suddenly start having these problems?
Harold Rogers:
So it wasn't the same school. So West Virginia State University is actually located in institute and they are not affiliated with West Virginia University.
Chris Danielsen:
Oh, okay, I see.
Harold Rogers:
But I was familiar with online learning management systems, although Western Virginia State University used Moodle and WVU used Blackboard. But yeah, the big surprise for me was just, there didn't feel like that there was a whole lot of care put into the construction of the courses.
And then it was a huge red flag for me that the clinical articles weren't working because again, that is a huge part of clinical social work. When we're looking at evidence-based practice and evidence-based interventions, we have to have that, the latest cutting edge treatment models and research to draw from to influence our practice. And I wasn't getting that, so I immediately raised my concerns with the university and instructors.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow, so we want to continue to hear about this story for sure. But let's pause for this message and then we'll come back and we're going to hear a little bit more from Miranda as far as whether she had similar experiences. And I'm really curious, so start thinking about this, what the response was when you told your instructors at this school that is supposed to have this disability institute (laughs).
Chris Danielsen:
Yeah, seriously.
Melissa Riccobono:
That you as disabled students weren't able to be getting the information that you needed to participate. So anyway, we're going to pause for the message first and stay tuned. We'll be back in just a second with Miranda and Harold so they can continue their stories.
Message:
Lace up and join us for a 10K walk or run across the Chesapeake Bay Bridge on November 9, 2025. This is your chance to forge connections with your community, empower others to get active and support education, independence, and opportunities for blind people. If you cannot attend in person, you can still participate virtually. Our chapters, divisions and affiliates can even complete the challenge as a White Cane Awareness Day activity during Blind Equality Achievement Month. Register at nfb.org/movers.
Melissa Riccobono:
Alright, welcome back. So Miranda, Harold talked about not having access to articles, having trouble with the Blackboard learning system. Were there other things or were those the same issues that you faced when you started the program a year after he did.
Miranda Lacy:
So I faced the exact same issues from the beginning. The orientation was not accessible, and so I made it a point to email constantly and say, this is broken, this isn't working. File IT tickets. And so it was just very overwhelming for me because I no longer had the option to magnify and go about it a different way. I had to rely on my screen reader. That's the only way I had to read the content. And so they had to figure something out.
Melissa Riccobono:
And what was the response for either or both of you when you were bringing these things to the attention, bringing these IT tickets, talking to your instructors, "Hey, I can't read this. I can't do this. This isn't working for me." I'm guessing the response, "Oh my gosh, we're so sorry. Let's fix this." Or maybe it was, but I mean, what was the response? What kind of reaction did the university give you?
Harold Rogers:
So I would say the university's response was not adequate because I didn't have the recommended readings that I needed. The instructors didn't have the appropriate training, nor the assistance in not only building their courses but addressing the problems. So I would go to ITS and it would be like, we're looking into this problem, and it would be a back and forth of testing and elaborating on what systems were being used, but there wouldn't be a whole lot of resolution in the meantime in the courses themselves.
So eventually, I guess to bring it to a head, I met with the department, most of the leadership in the school of social work as well as the office of, well, it's now the Office of Student Accommodations, but they had a name change. So the director, the disability office, as well as my accessibility specialist and just said, "Hey, can we look at this?"
Can we try to work on it making these things better because they're just not up to the standard that they need to be and we need to work on, clearly, I mean, if we're not going to make the current clinical information accessible to me, then we need to revise that.
And I didn't really get a whole lot of response other than the university, the instructors, the head of the disability office basically saying, we're going to work together in teams and meetings and we're going to look into this problem further. And that was pretty much it.
Miranda Lacy:
And for me, I think the most significant way that they handled it first was to send it to it. So I worked directly with IT, even an IT person coming to my home to help me try to figure out how to navigate the broken system. And she soon realized that there's nothing she could do to help.
And so they would shift the blame among themselves from the Office of Student Accommodations to the instructor to the course designers. And it was just shifted around instead of someone saying, "Well, it's broken and here's how we're going to help you." And that's still going on today.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow, frustrating doesn't even begin to cover. I'm sure...
Chris Danielsen:
Absolutely.
Melissa Riccobono:
What you both felt, and I say in some ways, going back, going to school, back in the dark ages when Chris and I did, technology was just coming in more so for me than for Chris, because I'm a little bit younger than Chris is, not by much, but a little. And nowadays, so much more is done online. And because it's online, I mean, there is no reason...
Chris Danielsen:
Absolutley not.
Melissa Riccobono:
This day and age that things online should not be accessible. And so back when Chris and I were going to school, our default mindset was, well, this isn't going to be accessible, so we're going to have to hire readers. We're going to have to get books on cassette tape. Remember those. We're going to have to get people to actually go to the library with us and help us read the articles because they're not, they're going to be in these print journals that you actually have to pull off the shelves from the stacks.
Yes, I'm old enough. That was actually a thing. It wasn't until graduate school when some of that, because I lived further away from campus because I had gotten married, they were actually able to scan things and send me articles electronically. And it was like a whole new world was opening up, but that was just like I was on the cusp of all of that happening.
And so I think it is just beyond frustrating that instead of figuring out how to make this better, the response seemed to be, "Well, it's not our fault, it's this fault. Well, no, it's not our fault. It's this person's fault." And like you said, Miranda and Harold, nobody's saying, okay, it doesn't really matter ultimately whose fault it is, here's what we're going to do to fix this. And by the way, wow, this really is an opportunity for us to go to our staff and really help them learn how to make all their courses accessible for any students that might come along. And what a win that would be for us...
Chris Danielsen:
(Laughs) Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
As a university (laughs).
Chris Danielsen:
I mean, seriously, I mean, the lack of taking responsibility. And the other thing I would say is even though it would've been an opportunity, all schools should have taken these opportunities years ago. I mean, these are not new. There are laws about this stuff, the Americans with Disabilities Act being the primary one and the Rehabilitation Act, and it's not as if any of that is new.
I mean, the Rehabilitation Act, and I didn't even use as much technology as you did Melissa, and it was very much up to me most of the time to find readers and to figure out how I was going to interact with printed materials. I did have a Braille book for one course because it was a math course, and I insisted on it, and I did of course have what used to be recordings for the blind. But I mean, it was a very different time, but at least I was in control.
And most of the time, and it seems like it's got to be so frustrating to have a situation where the school has these responsibilities, but nobody's taking responsibility. Nobody's taking charge and saying, we have to fix this problem for Harold and for Miranda and for any other students that are having it. And it's not like they don't have the infrastructure. They've got the Office of Student Accommodation, which is supposed to know something about these things.
I got to get down off my soapbox here (Melissa laughs), but I can't imagine the frustration that both of you must have experienced. I don't know if you want to add anything about how it felt, and you certainly don't have to. I realize it's not always easy to talk about, but I mean, you're just trying to get through school, which is enough of a challenge, not because you're not capable of it, but just because school is supposed to be challenging. And then you've got this to deal with.
Miranda Lacy:
Well, can I say that I wasn't aware of reader services. I'd never had to use reader services in undergrad. So when I found out that that was an option for me through the president of WV NFB, she recommended a reader reached out several times to ask for that as an accommodation, and I was given an article about how I was requesting a personal aid (Melissa gasps), and they couldn't give me that. And it was so degrading and so humiliating...
Chris Danielsen:
You got to be kidding me.
Miranda Lacy:
And it is difficult to talk about.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow. So it shouldn't be a surprise to any of our listeners at this point that both of you decided you weren't going to take it and that you had tried in good faith to communicate with the university, to have them be aware of your needs, to be aware of what wasn't working, gave them ample opportunities to fix this, and they weren't moving. And so I think it's safe to say that both of you weren't happy with that, and you both reached out. Did both of you reach out to the National Federation of the Blind to see if there was any legal course or how did that take place?
Miranda Lacy:
So if I'm allowed to talk about my friend Harold was having a mental health crisis related to the accessibility problems. And in desperation, I had just started the program. So this was late 2023, early 2024, and I didn't know what to do, but I knew there had to be someone who could help us. So I googled blind, someone who could help, and the first thing that popped up was NFB.
And I was like, okay, I'm going to call it, it's the first one. And so I connected with Ms. Sherri Koch, and she tried really hard to advocate for us and to help the university understand how to accommodate us. And when those communications broke down, we ended up meeting Eve and moving forward with the lawsuit.
Chris Danielsen:
This is Eve Hill, General Counsel to the National Federation of the Blind, just so everybody knows. Yeah, wow. So there you go. Harold, do you have a different perspective on it or?
Harold Rogers:
No, but I do want to add some context just because that way for the listeners and for the overall conversation that we have a clear narrative. So in those meetings with the university's departments in the leadership of the School of Social Work and the Office of Student Accommodations, I said, look, I had, in my younger years, I had went to Washington Seminar and back when NFB was doing the blind driver's challenge, I was aware of NFB's history of working with Apple and iTunes University, and I knew that the National Federation of the Blind had the CENA team.
And so I told the university, I said, look, let's try to start with the NFB in West Virginia and we can work together to, again, we can fix this together. We can set the example for online education together. And that just didn't, as Miranda said, we had several meetings with Ms. Cook and the university and those kind of, I mean those communications, unfortunately, those lines of communication broke down very, very quickly.
And I would also just add to, again, just for context, that another really, really important, I would call it the signature pedagogy as Mrs. Riccobono, you have a background and you went to graduate school for counseling psychology. So you know about practicums and field placements and the significance that the clinical internships and practicums play in shaping your overall perspective as a professional in the field. It is equal to your coursework for sure.
And so I also had to go and do an internship and fill out an application for that. And again, no surprise to this school, I said, "Hey, I'm blind and I'm going to need accommodations." And it was like crickets. And then I went to the placement and told the placement, and that was crickets. So the amount of expectations in an environment, in a clinical setting with a social work student at the master's level, especially when there are not appropriate accommodations in place, there's just no way for you to be effective at clinical social work.
And so I did the best I could with raising alarm bells many times, and then eventually the workload just got to the point where I had to shift to remote work and some health issues were exacerbated. But yeah, so I mean, there's just so much, and I don't want to rattle along, so I'll let you all step back in, but there's just so much really that's happened with this situation.
Melissa Riccobono:
And so many layers. I mean, because one thing impacts the other thing. I mean, that's all what social work is about, all the social things that go together to make people who they are to make their situations what they are. I mean, of course it makes sense that you're having some health issues because there's situations that are beyond your control.
Chris Danielsen:
I mean, being academically successful is at this level is enough to have to deal with. And when you're not getting the support you need, and then you have a situation where in effect what is happening is the challenges are putting you in a situation where your own academic ability isn't enough to solve the problems. But of course, to people who don't know any better, it starts to reflect on how they perceive you in terms of how you're doing in the program. And that's really unfair.
It's really crazily unfair that obviously two very intelligent and accomplished individuals like yourselves were put in a position where that the issue became not your own skills, not your own drive, not your own resources, but just the fact that you could not count on the institution that is supposed to be working to make you successful to do that.
Melissa Riccobono:
Very well said. And let me point out, the NFB doesn't want to sue people. I mean, people often think that that's all we do, or that's what we want to do, or that's what we jump on first. And I think that from this podcast, you're getting the idea that, no, that's not our first line of defense. So obviously the first line is the advocacy, and both Miranda and Harold did that. And then the second line was, let's get an advocate involved. So Sherri Koch, the president of the NFB of West Virginia did that.
And then it was only after all of those things that Eve got involved. And we in the NFB also don't have unlimited resources. We can't take every case that comes across our desk, unfortunately. We'd love to, but we just can't. And so for us to say, no, this is absolutely egregious, and not only is this absolutely egregious, but this is egregious enough that we feel that at this point, the only way to possibly salvage the situation for these two students and the students that come after and to set a precedent, which I think is equally as important for other universities of how it should be done right, that's when the lawsuit came into effect.
And so it's not that we just willy-nilly run out and "Oh, you didn't have an alt tag on this image, and that's the only thing on your website that's broken, but we're going to sue you for that." No, no that's not how it works (laughs).
Chris Danielsen:
You folks, we're not sue happy. And plus, and you don't have to talk about this, but it can't be fun to still be attending the university that you're in litigation with in certain ways. So I mean, this is not a course of action that anybody takes lightly, including the Federation, and I imagine certainly not the two of you.
Miranda Lacy:
Absolutely. It's very uncomfortable.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah. I can't even imagine. Are you both still students at the university or what does that look like while this is going on? Because I can't quite imagine being in court with certain people one day and then coming back to class another day. So what does that look like? Can you talk about that?
Miranda Lacy:
Sure. That's what it's going to look like (laughs). So there's tension. I feel like it's just extremely uncomfortable. That's the best way to put it. And it's really sad. It's really sad that it had to come down to this because we didn't want it to.
Harold Rogers:
Yeah, and I would also just add to that again, I know I back up a little bit and I just wanted to echo what Mrs. Riccobono said about the National Federation of the Blind. On one hand, the National Federation of the Blind feels, and they've made this amply clear in many of their publications, that discrimination itself is actually the thing that holds back people with disabilities the most.
And we tried, I'm talking countless meetings with the university over and over and over and over again, and to Ms. Koch's credit, you're talking somebody with thirty years of experience in rehabilitation counseling, someone that ran the West Virginia Rehabilitation Blind Services division. So I mean, we had weight of experts, experienced people that really knew how field placement and some of these things should look and what should that look like? And were willing to sit and take the time to delicately address these problems.
And then just to what Mr. Danielsen said that, not to brag or nothing, but yeah, academically speaking, you're talking about, and I know she doesn't like to brag about herself, so I'll brag for her. You're talking about somebody that is a single mother, okay? You're talking about somebody that graduated a university with honors in psychology, is in psychi and is going to graduate school and having this significant event of losing your vision, but not just losing your vision, losing your vision at a frequency and rate that most individuals would step away from graduate school and those responsibilities and all the other things that she deals with and just address that.
That's significant enough. And yet she's still willing to persevere and to, like you all said, stay inside of a program that we're actively challenging in litigation as social work students, which I would also just add for this happening, by the way, from a school of social work that is accredited by the CSWE is heartbreaking to me. It's truly heartbreaking.
Chris Danielsen:
And I should say Miranda is also a 2024 scholarship winner. And you didn't brag on yourself, Harold, but you have, I believe you have, and I'm not going to remember the name of it, but you have some kind of national fellowship in your field, correct?
Harold Rogers:
Yeah. Well, I did (Harold and Miranda laugh). So I was actually one of only twenty-three people that was selected for the Rural Integrated Behavioral Health Program through HRSA. That's through the Department of Health Human Services. And I also graduated, by the way, undergrad in the School of Social Work in Alpha Delta Mu, which is West State University's chapter of the National Honors Society in Social Work. So you're talking to two people that this is very important to us on many different levels, and no, we were not at all litigation happening.
Chris Danielsen:
Right, and two people that don't make excuses that meet challenges head on and have succeeded.
Melissa Riccobono:
Two people that would really be so valuable in the field of social work for so many different ways. I mean, talk about all the things that social workers try to help clients with.
Miranda Lacy:
And can I speak on that?
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, ofcourse.
Miranda Lacy:
I am a survivor of domestic violence, and I'm currently doing an internship at the YWCA Resolve Family Abuse Program. And one of the reasons why social work is so important to me is because as a single mother, I had to learn to navigate poverty and those complex systems, and I just really want to empower other people in West Virginia to live up to their fullest potential and to help them navigate those systems to meet their needs.
Melissa Riccobono:
That's what social work is supposed to be all about. And for the university to just stifle you at every turn that is, I don't know, that's like a quadruple punch to the gut in my opinion. It's looking kind of difficult for you both right now. What does keep you going and do you have any advice for others who are either planning to go to college and are a little bit worried about the process or who might be in a similar situation? What are the things that you're learning and taking from this? Are there any bright sides right now that you can share?
Miranda Lacy:
My bright side would be to have a friend like Harold who's going through a similar experience. And so someone who understands what I'm going through. And I know not everyone will have that, but just being mindful, continuing to advocate for yourself. Just don't give up. And a lot of times throughout this process, I've received a lot of blame for the problems with accessibility, and I just don't internalize that. I just keep moving forward because I need to set an example for my boys, and that's what's most important to me, to keep my eye on the prize that I'm going to graduate, that I'm going to be employed, and I'm going to set an example for my children.
Harold Rogers:
And I think the ray of hope for me, and probably the best way for me to look at it, even though in my opinion the restraints and the label that's been placed on me is unjust in my opinion. I think the ray of hope for me is that in this new internship that I'm at is aptly named Redemption Services, and we actually worked with the CSED program in West Virginia, and what that is is the children with serious emotional disorders. And so they often times have families that are, they're the most vulnerable. We in West Virginia, we have a epidemic of the foster care crisis, some of the highest rates in the nation, I think 7,000 children.
So the ray of hope is actually is my clients getting to work with these vulnerable children every single day. And again, to see the growth and the power that social work can have on a family system and restoring and reunifying that family system in an environment to where not only are we giving you tools and coping mechanisms, but we're giving you positive binding resilience that you build up within yourself. And to get to watch that as a practitioner is amazing.
It's truly a blessing to me. And I would say to all the people out there that are coming up against what NFB talks about often or low expectations, I would just recommend and encourage you that you see those low expectations as opportunities for challenging those low expectations. And the NFB has many, many different vehicles in which they do that. There are so many different things that you can do through the National Federation of the Blind in regards to building up a coalition of people that are like-minded, especially students.
I can't say enough about the NABS organization. They do so many different things, so many different events. They're extremely, the board on the NABS board is extremely passionate individuals and scholars in their own right and achievers in their own right. So I would just tell you that you, you're not alone. A lot of those low expectations and a lot of those barriers, they are isolating at first.
But again, I think you should just look at those low expectations as an opportunity to turn those low expectations into an example and how we can raise them together with each other's help. Because that's what it's all about when it comes to really being a change agent and a wounded healer, we all have experiences and we can look at those experiences and weaponize them in such a way to allow them to, not to define us, but to refine us. That would be my advice to you.
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow. Incredibly, incredibly well said. And I loved what Miranda said before about not taking it personally because, and I can't imagine how hard that is, but of course, we always tend to blame ourselves. Most of us are much harder on ourselves than anybody else would ever truly be in real life. And so not taking that personally, really being able to step back and say, the fact that this is inaccessible is not my fault.
I didn't create the course, I didn't pick the articles. This is not my fault. And what's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. And so if I am beating my head against the wall over and over and over, I'm going to get a headache and it's not going to be helpful, and I'm still not going to be able to access this material because it's broken.
Now, I mean, on the other hand, if there are things that you can learn, sometimes it is little tricks from other blind people who use the software that can say, "Oh, yeah, I was having trouble with that, but I, I've found that if I do this, this and this, that sometimes it works better." And sometimes that does help. Obviously. I'm sure you've tried all of those things, all those tips and tricks. But I guess the first part is really talking to other people, figuring out, is it training that I need?
Do I need more training on how to use my screen reader or do I need more training in Braille or whatever it might be, or do I need tutoring? Is it not that the material's inaccessible? Is it that I'm horrible at math and I just need help to get through this subject? Not because it's not accessible to me, but because it's math and I need help.
Chris Danielsen:
I have a math tutor by the way (laughs). I'm going to come right out and yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, I need help with math because I just need help with math, whatever it is, or writing. It's nothing to do with blindness, but maybe you have dyslexia in addition, or you have some other disability where writing is difficult, whatever it is, those things, and asking for that kind of help is completely okay. All students have the ability to get tutoring and different things if they're struggling in classes.
But if you have a disability and everything that's put in your path is completely inaccessible to you, and there's nothing that's really put in place for you to have that change, then as Miranda said, not taking that personally, not saying, "Oh my gosh, I'm not going to graduate and it's all my fault." Instead kind of turning it around and these are low expectations, I still want my degree and here's what I'm going to do to go forward. And we do have a toolkit, Chris, a higher education toolkit on how to advocate in kind of those early stages. So hopefully you're not needing to get to the stage where Miranda and Harold are.
Chris Danielsen:
Yeah, hopefully. I mean, it is important to point out there are blind college and graduate students who are all over this country, and there are institutions that have stepped up, some of them because of settlements with the National Federation of the Blind and have done the right thing. And so it is important to realize that there are ways to deal with this, and there is our self-advocacy and higher education toolkit, which is available. Hopefully that is tremendously helpful to a lot of our blind students.
And I will say that my bright side coming out of this story is that Harold Rogers and Miranda Lacy are part of the National Federation of the Blind, because these are two people who are working to make and to make a positive difference for blind people and for other people, both of them. So movingly talking about the work that they are doing and want to do, and we all have your back, we all have each other's back. We have the resources to help each other, and that is what our movement is all about.
Melissa Riccobono:
Definitely. So I think we're kind of coming down to the end, Miranda and Harold, is there anything else that you would like to share with our listeners before we wrap up?
Miranda Lacy:
Thank you for bringing attention to this because I feel like it's very important, and I think my goal here is that no blind person will ever feel how I've felt. So if nothing else comes from this, I hope that that's the result.
Harold Rogers:
I would just say that it's clear that together we can raise those expectations that are low and to move towards a place in society in which we are living the lives that we want. And the National Federation of the Blind, their new Access On podcast, by the way, is somebody that is a tech enthusiast in their spare time, is also an amazing resource.
Chris Danielsen:
Nice cross promotion there, Harold (Chris and Melissa laugh)
Harold Rogers:
Highly, reccommend, highly recommend that podcast.
Melissa Riccobono:
Your check from Jonathan Mosen from the mail (Melissa, Chris and Miranda laugh).
Harold Rogers:
Exactly. He's amazing. Just getting just his voice.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh, I know. I know. During the national convention, I don't know if I've shared this on the Nation's Blind before, but our daughter, Elizabeth was listening to Jonathan talk and she's like, "I think that he should read audio books (Miranda and Melissa laugh) because I want to hear him read books to me. So anyway, yeah, definitely. Chris, is there anything else you want to add?
Chris Danielsen:
No, I just want to thank these wonderful individuals for sharing their story and sharing their time with us. It can't have been easy, but you both did a wonderful job. And I think it will share with our listeners that none of us are alone as blind people, and none of us have to be alone, and we're all in this together.
Melissa Riccobono:
Stronger together. That should be like a convention theme. Oh, wait, wait. It already was (laughs).
Chris Danielsen:
Yeah, we think we've used that.
Melissa Riccobono:
I think we have. I think we have. Well, thank you all so much for listening to the Nation's Blind Podcast. We will definitely be with you, coming to you again. And until that time, remember, you can live the life you want.
Chris Danielsen:
Blindness is not what holds you back.
We'd love your feedback. Email podcast@nfb.org or call 410-659-9314, extension 2444.