Announcer:
Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast presented by the National Federation of the Blind. The transformative membership and advocacy organization of blind Americans. Live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono:
Hello and welcome once again to the Nation's Blind Podcast. I am still Melissa Riccobono (Anil laughs), and I am still here with my wonderful, amazing, never duplicated co-host, Anil Lewis. How are you?
Anil Lewis:
I love that. I just like recording the podcast just to get introduced by Melissa Riccobono (Melissa laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
Often imitated, never duplicated...
Anil Lewis:
Never duplicated, itty bitty living space (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
That is very, very true because people do try to imitate you, Anil. I hope you know that. I guess that's kind of...
Anil Lewis:
Poor them (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, they look up to you. You're a leader. And what do they say? The biggest form of flattery is...
Anil Lewis:
Is imitation.
Melissa Riccobono:
Imitation or whatever. And you also often joke about or imitate people that you like and a lot of people like you. So I think it's all good.
Anil Lewis:
Oh, wow. All right. That's a wrap (Melissa laughs). Thank you for joining us with the Nation's Blind Podcast. Our episode has been about praise on Anil Lewis, so hopefully this was helpful to our listeners (Anil and Melissa laugh).
Melissa Riccobono:
Always, always helpful to praise Anil Lewis. Yes (laughs)!
Anil Lewis:
Talking about it being imitated, I think that a lot of individuals, unfortunately, when they're coming into the organization, they feel like they have to imitate someone else rather than becoming their authentic selves because I do think it's flattering if someone adopts a strategy or something. But I really, really try to strive to get people to feel comfortable in the movement based on their authentic place because if we all just imitated one person, we would be such a boring organization.
I think the diversity and the different lived experiences and the strategies that we use to deal with the life's challenges really are what makes this organization so robust. To that end, I was very pleased to be able to facilitate a panel at our National Convention this year with three really impressive young people. Manahil, Jean, and Kinchick have really always impressed me since I've known them. They're student leaders in the organization that are transitioning into leaders outside of our National Association of Blind Students. And discussion was really around how do they find their way of maintaining their authenticity as they transition from student leaders to leaders in the broader movement.
So I'm glad to have that particular discussion today and very pleased that we're joined with Norma Crosby. Norma is our affiliate president in Texas and also serves as the treasurer of our national organization for our national board of directors and has so many other attributes with respect to her leadership in the organization. So Norma, will you take a little time and introduce yourself to our listeners?
Norma Crosby:
Sure. Anil already told you a little bit about me, but I guess one thing that I would say about myself is when I joined the Federation back in 1982, which was a few days ago (Melissa chuckles).
Melissa Riccobono:
Just a few.
Norma Crosby:
I was not looking for what I found. I was a newly divorced young person with two small children, and I was fairly lonely and was looking for a social outlet. And I definitely found that. I have found hundreds of friends over the years in the Federation. They're definitely my people, my community, but I found so much more. I came and I met leaders who were willing to talk to me, just this little girl from East Texas who didn't think she had anything going for herself, but they talked to me and they made me feel welcomed. They made me feel that I was a part of something that I had, and I had never felt that before.
I wasn't quite part of the sighted community, and the blindness professionals kept telling me I wasn't really exactly part of the blindness community either.
Anil Lewis:
Interesting.
Norma Crosby:
The Federation taught me that I did have a community and that I belonged, as I've said before, any place I want to go. And I started working in the Federation and found a passion for doing whatever needed to be done. People often want to know how does a person become a leader? And one of the things I always say is by doing any job that comes along.
Anil Lewis:
Can you expound on that a little more? How did you become a leader?
Norma Crosby:
Sure. At that time, at the time when I came into the Federation, we had a young man who was our affiliate president named Glenn Crosby (Anil laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh! What do you know?
Norma Crosby:
(Checkles) There is a familial connection (Melissa and Anil laugh).
Anil Lewis:
So you really did get engaged in this organization in a social fashion (Melissa laughs)
Norma Crosby:
I really did. And I used to come to Glenn with all kinds of ideas because I was young and I was enthusiastic about the work that we had to do once I actually got involved. And so I would just come to him with all kinds of ideas. And really the way I became a leader is he would say, "I hope you're not just looking for work for me to do (Anil laughs) because I already have a lot of work to do.
And I said, "Oh no, I'm willing to do it."And really, as I said, I think being willing to take on jobs that if you think something's a good idea, being willing to work on it is, in my opinion, what you should be willing to do. You shouldn't find jobs for other leaders because as Glenn told me, that he already had plenty of jobs.
And I definitely think being willing to take on those jobs that are not glamorous, I've helped make protest signs in the middle of the night when nobody was looking. And I think it's great to be the leader that's standing before the convention and hearing the thanks and the praise, but it's just as important to do those jobs behind the scenes that nobody really wants to do. Dr. Jernigan taught us when I was growing up in the Federation, so to speak, he taught us that there's no job that a leader shouldn't be willing to do. You shouldn't ask other people to do what you're not willing to do.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, and I think that's a real true leadership growth regardless, not just within this organization because when you have an understanding of the various jobs that need to be done and the challenges that people face in doing them, then you can be a leader because you can help support individuals who are going through that. I think a lot of individuals don't really know what it takes and they may be assigning someone a task and not really realize that it's a little bit more than just what they think.
So having that lived experience as a leader, that's very similar to me. When I came as a part of the organization, my acceptance in the organization wasn't as good as you. I didn't have someone that I could latch onto, but I realized just through my relationship with Dr. Maurer and others, the potential of what the affiliate could be here in Georgia.
And a lot of the things I was coming to introduce, they weren't well received. And in the beginning, I have to own that. I wasn't really doing in a way that I think would've been received, even by me as a leader. So I had to really reframe the way that I introduced myself as a resource to the organization. But then in doing those jobs, especially the ones that no one else wanted to do and doing them well and making them look easy, then people started to notice me and the work that I was doing.
And I wanted to be a leader. And I think that's an also important part of becoming a leader in the organization. So willing to do the work, wanting the work, because it seems if you're doing it well, if you're a leader and you're doing it well, everybody out on the outside thinks it's simple, but it's really not.
I've learned more leadership skills being a volunteer in this organization in those early years than any other job I've ever had or any other formal training that I've had about leadership. So that's one of those opportunities if you look at them that you can gain by becoming a leader in the organization. How about you, Melissa?
Melissa Riccobono:
Well, I have to say a couple things. First of all, I think there's all kinds of leaders because I'm the type of leader, and I mean, I've definitely been out front, but that wasn't really the plan when I first joined the organization (chuckles). I joined and I really got engaged in this organization a little bit like Norma because back in the day there was this Wisconsin Association of Blind Students president named Mark Riccobono (Anil laughs) who had me come to my first student meeting.
And the reason I joined the student meeting was because they were talking about things I cared about and things I was interested in helping with, things like Brailing names at a fundraiser and talking to kids and adults about Braille at a bookstore, things like buying a kid a cane whose family could not afford one. And that's what brought me in.
And not only did that bring me in, but then just realizing that so often in other organizations, there's jobs and when you offer to do it, "Oh no, no, somebody else will take care of that. Somebody else will take care of that." And we were just a small student division, and so it wasn't that way at all. It was, "Oh, if you want to do this, you go ahead and do that and I'll do this and we'll do it this way. And yeah, we'll buy candy bars and we'll have a party to label the bags and we'll..." All those kind of student-y types of things. But I became president because the person who was going to be president, President Riccobono was running for the president of Wisconsin, the affiliate.
So he didn't want to be student president anymore and he had somebody all lined up and she at the very last minute said, "Oh, no, thanks, but no thanks (Anil laughs)." And so we were really in a pickle and a friend of mine was nominated and she said, "Heck no (laughs)." And maybe even stronger than that, but she was polite about it.
And then I was nominated and I mean, my gosh, talk about being on the hot seat. I mean, I was very new to the Federation, might've been happy to be the secretary or something because I am more comfortable as a leader who is doing those things behind the scenes, those things like organizing registration, taking people's names, taking people's money, greeting them when they walk in the door, connecting them, introducing them to people. I'm very comfortable with those things.
I didn't really know what it would be like to be the president of something. And yet here we were, and it didn't really seem like anybody else was budging (Anil laughs). And I kind of liked this Mark Riccobono guy and I felt bad for him (Anil, Melissa, and Norma laugh) that this other lady had completely all of a sudden turned him down and my friend just kept saying to me, "I'll help you. I'll help you. I promise. I'll be your vice president (Anil laughs). I promise I'll help you.
(laughs)" And so I finally said yes. And there was a huge sigh of relief, including from the national rep at the time (Anil laughs) who was Bruce Gardner. And that was how I got my first leadership. And it's been interesting because I've kind of, I don't want to have people take this wrong, but I kind of have fallen into leadership positions by happenstance kind of ever since.
I've never really, I've always wanted what I've gotten, but I never really thought about it until it was kind of in my lap, until I was asked. So the president of our Dane County chapter moved away and he asked me to be president. I never thought about that, but I mean, it made sense. Okay, I could see it. Sure, I suppose. Then our president of our Greater Baltimore chapter moved away (Melissa, Norma and Anil laugh).
Anil Lewis:
I see your strategy here.
Melissa Riccobono:
I don't know what I do (Melissa and Norma laugh).
Anil Lewis:
I see. Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
And then Dr. Maurer asked me to be president of Maryland. I mean, it's been very interesting, but it really has sort of come down to being given the opportunities, but also I really want to make sure that people understand when we're talking about leadership, you don't have to be president, vice president. We always say there is plenty of work to go around in the NFB, and that is absolutely true.
And if you are a leader that is much more comfortable behind the scenes, there's plenty of that work for you to do, and you are no more or less important than anybody else that is in front of the scenes because you're often the gears that are making something work and making it look really easy. And you got to have a team as a leader. And we need all kinds. We need those that are really comfortable being forceful and out in front, and we really need those that are comfortable behind the scenes too.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, I agree. And you've had the experience that we're going to be talking about today growing up as a student leader in the organization and still finding a way to still be part of the overall organization once you're no longer a student. Again, the panel at convention with Manahil Jafri, Gene Kim and Kinshuk Tella was really an eye-opening opportunity for me to really get insight as to their, I guess you'll call it transitional dilemma. And I'm looking forward to hearing some of the clips and us discussing them. But let's take a brief pause for a quick message and we'll come back.
Message:
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Melissa Riccobono:
All right, we're back. Convention, Norma, you talked about Texas. Convention will be coming up in Austin, Texas before we know it, but let's now take a listen back to last year's convention and Anil, your panel that you were able to help run, facilitate, and let's hear a little bit. I think we're going to hear some clips and then comment on them. That's how this is going to work, right, Anil?
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, we're going to take a listen to a comment from Kinshuk first.
Melissa Riccobono:
Perfect.
Kinshuk Tella:
Getting involved with the NFB at a local level was so much easier. Having the collaboration between the student efforts and our very important affiliates, local efforts was really incredibly important in my personal development. Despite being involved locally, the leadership in Ohio really did take the time to invest in my success nationally.
A month into my involvement in the NFB, President Richard Payne gave me a really unexpected phone call on, I was on campus walking home from the gym on a snowy, wintery December day in Ohio. And he gave me a phone call and he said, "Hey, hey, Kinshuk, do you want to come to DC with me and represent the NFB, talking to congressmen, advocating for policy that's relevant to all of us?"
And I thought he was crazy (Anil and audience laughs). I didn't expect him to, I was like, "What can I offer you?" That's kind of the question I asked myself, but he saw a need and a place for young voices and he invested the affiliate's resources into me and that single trip to DC was incredibly pivotal to my development as a leader. And ever since then, the transition out of being in school and graduating over the past year and a half or so and transitioning into other kinds of work in the organization, especially through the scholarship programs has been incredibly easy and seamless and positive.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, that I think is the model. It's really nice that Kinshuk was able to engage in all three levels as a student in our NABS division, active in his local affiliate through the encouragement of his affiliate president, Richard Payne, who also encouraged him to get involved on a national level through that work. That's kind of ideal. Do either of you have any ideas of any successful transition opportunities similar to Kinshuk's?
Norma Crosby:
I think sometimes students aren't as involved as they might be because they're busy with school or their social life or whatever, and sometimes they're not involved because we don't help make them involved. I think it's critical that students be involved in every aspect of what we do in the Federation because not only do they need us, but we need them too. We've got to find the next Mark Riccobono, the next Anil Lewis, the next whatever we need. And we're not going to find that if the only people we ever involve is the same people that have been involved for a hundred years.
We need those people too, but it's critical to hear those young voices as well, I think, and to invest the dollars and the time that it takes. And I think also to treat them like adults, I think very often some affiliate presidents tend to go by the model. We never have done it that way (Melissa laughs), so we're not going to do it that way now. And young people want to do things different sometimes. And while you can't say yes to everything, I think saying yes whenever you possibly can is the thing to do.
Anil Lewis:
Well said.
Melissa Riccobono:
I think that's so, so smart. And I think also just being okay with letting young people take the lead and standing back and letting them fail, letting them make those mistakes. Now, if they fail, is something necessarily a failure? Well, no. I'll give you a quick example. This is with younger kids, but in our BELL Academy a few years ago, we had a BELL X program. This was for kids that were a little bit older, still of BELL age, but they were more like the 10, 11, 12-year-old ages. They knew the Braille code. They were ready for different kinds of challenges and not just Braille twister and learning the basics of Braille.
And so we had sort of an accelerated program where they did things like walk over to my house and make lunch for everybody in the program. And one of the girls still remembers this. She talked to me the other day about making pizza in my kitchen and how she remembered that and how fun that was. And they did all sorts of things. One thing they did was a play and I was the director of said play and kept telling them, "You know guys, you really need to practice this play." These were young kids. They were, again, ten, eleven, twelve.
Most of them were very, very strong personalities. And the couple that weren't, just sort of sat back and let the other louder ones take over. It was a very interesting dynamic, but let's just say they goofed around more than they practiced. And I said, "Okay." So it came to the performance and the wheels kind of fell off a little bit. And I could have taken it two ways.
As a director of the play, I could have said, "Oh, this was horrible. You guys messed this up. I've never been so embarrassed." But I decided very early on, you know what, this is their play. This isn't about me. This is about them. And wouldn't you know it that every single one of them at some point that day after the play came up to me in private and said, "You know what? You were right. We should have practiced more." And I said, "Okay, cool now, you know for next time."
But I think sometimes state presidents get so caught up and they're so busy and they want everything to run just right that they don't really give students that opportunity to really truly take control without feeling like that person's looking over their shoulder. And that's very difficult to do, but I think when it can be done, it's important.
Anil Lewis:
Sure. And I think that's important. Going back to what Norma was saying, believing in them and supporting them, and I think that's important. And what you're saying is create opportunities for them to learn in that space too. When I was the Georgia affiliate president, we didn't have a huge student presence, but then when we started seeing these nice student leaders with all this potential, it wasn't about creating a space for them to just be upfront and then we backfill to make them look good. We really trusted in them and supported them to develop programming that really spoke to where they were as students and what they felt was important.
And we guided them to make sure that it was within a framework that was supportive of the Federation. And I think that's what made all the difference. I've seen subsequently, many times when we've kind of, I'll say, annointed a young person with this particular, I don't want to call it false, but unachieved status.
And I think that that's been detrimental. We'll tell, "Oh, wow, you're going to be the next president of the affiliate" because we like them." And that sets up a false expectation without leading them through a path that they acquire a skillset where they can be successful in that role because there is a true chance, based on your description, Melissa, that they could end up becoming an affiliate president by some defacto absence of other candidates.
And without them having a real sense of their skillset, who they are, what they bring to the table, we do them a disservice, an organizational disservice. But we talked about the ideal and Kinshuk modeled the ideal. Melissa, in many ways, it seems like your transition from a student leader to the leader was more ideal, but Manahil really took the opportunity to be vulnerable at the convention to share her experience coming out of that student leadership role, trying to be part of the affiliate. And hers wasn't as smooth as the one that Kinshuk described. Let's take a listen.
Manahil Jafri:
At that time with the previous administration in my affiliate, I felt very unwelcomed in that space. I would try to reach out multiple times to ask of how is it that I could get involved, to no answer, to a lack of enthusiasm. Again, I was very new, not only to the organization, but to the organization's philosophy as well.
So maybe I didn't always say the right things, and maybe I didn't always know exactly how the structure worked, but I really needed someone in that moment to teach me and help me figure out what exactly it is for me to do and how exactly this organization does function. People thinking I was either not wanting to be involved in the affiliate or being too busy to be involved in the affiliate, that really, unfortunately, turned me away from trying to be involved in my affiliate.
And that is, again, I'm saying all of this to a lot of this had to do with the former administration and former leadership administration. But a big thing that I want to emphasize here is that it's really important for individuals and affiliates to communicate with their students because the assumption was already made that I didn't have time for my affiliates. I was not asked or not even if when I reached out to ask to help with various parts, whether that be Washington Seminar, state convention, my pleas were ignored because the assumption that I was too busy.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah. I remember leading up to the panel, Manahil really struggled with what she should say on the national stage. And I think that took a lot of courage for her to be that vulnerable, but the real proof is in the pudding because as a result of her sharing on that level, I got a lot of phone calls from students and interesting enough, some adults that her story kind of resonated with them.
And I think that the resulting discussion in the panel kind of encouraged them. And by those students sharing the strategies they used to continue to be involved, hopefully encouraged and inspired and guided some of the others who were dealing with a similar struggle. Norma, what thoughts do you have?
Norma Crosby:
I think a lot of young people experienced what she did. I don't think it's as uncommon as we wish it were. One of the things I've started, you learn as you go. If you're a president, you aren't born into it where you know everything the day you take over, right (Melissa laughs)?
Melissa Riccobono:
Absolutely not (laughs).
Anil Lewis:
If only.
Norma Crosby:
I've been serving for eleven years now as affiliate president. And one of the things I've started really doing is to making sure that I include students on committees. One of our committees, our DEI committee, has several young people included because that's one of the things they're passionate about, about inclusion and making everyone feel welcome. And they, not me, but they have come up with the idea that we should, as young people do, an adopt a grandparent program.
Anil Lewis:
Oh, nice.
Melissa Riccobono:
Ah, I love that.
Norma Crosby:
That's something we're going to start working on here in Texas, but it's so easy to say no. And I think that that's the mistake we as older people do, because maybe we don't have the energy anymore or not always at least. We think, "Well, I can't take on one more task." But giving them that permission, they do have the energy. And I know when I joined, when I was a young person, I was very passionate about what it was that we were doing and trying to achieve. And I was looking for things to do.
And I think obviously there are students who would say they're too busy, but I think Manahil showed us that that's exactly why you do want to include them. You don't know how busy a person is until you give them the opportunity. And there is an old saying, "If you want something done, find a busy person and ask them to do it."
Anil Lewis:
I have to remember that one. I did find it very interesting that Manahil was interpreting, and it probably was true, the leadership saying that they didn't feel she had enough time, which I could see how that could be interpreted. That was interesting. How about you, Melissa? Any thoughts?
Melissa Riccobono:
I think it's so complicated. So I love the idea that Norma, you're putting these young people on the committees, you're giving them jobs. Sometimes as a state president, what I struggled with then was, okay, I've got all these people who are doing all these things over here, and how do I make it a point to be able to check in with them? Or if I can't check in with them, who can check in with them? Is that a board position like, okay, my such and such, my first vice president or whatever, is really passionate about young people.
So maybe is that the person that I'm going to have check in? Because I think sometimes what can happen with students, they have lots of energy, they have lots of ideas, and once in a while, unfortunately, the real world comes crashing down and they sometimes realize, "Oh my gosh, I'm over committed," or "This is too big." And so it sometimes is hard to sort of, you don't want to take away that enthusiasm, you want to give them jobs, you want to give them opportunities.
You also kind of want to be that small voice of reason gently, and maybe even just setting your expectations. Okay, it would be great if you could get this adopted grandparent running statewide by whatever day. But you know what? Honestly, if you get, I don't know, five people matched in your local chapter, that's a win, that's going forward. So I think helping to kind to break it down because a lot of students, sometimes they have a lot of energy and a lot of will, but also really have not had the experience.
I mean, I think it depends so much on how much support different students are going to need to get the same job done. But I do think it's very important to make sure that we're not just discounting students and saying, "Oh, they're too busy." Or, "The last three times I called them, they said they would and then they never followed through." Why? Why didn't they follow through? It's probably not because they're bad people. What can we do to make sure that that doesn't happen again?
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, that's where the learning takes place.
Melissa Riccobono:
And just because that happened once doesn't mean that you can't ever trust them. I think that's really important too. I think sometimes we as humans can be quick to judge and, "Oh, that person, they never..." Well, you don't know unless you try. And maybe it hasn't been the right project or the right time or I don't know, the right phase of the moon (laughs) or whatever it is. I think it is all about planting seeds and that's what students are doing. They're learning, they're growing, they're finding themselves. And I think sometimes they have to go away a little bit in order to come back stronger. Not always, but sometimes.
Anil Lewis:
And that's helpful. I've seen that a lot of instances. Go ahead Norma.
Norma Crosby:
I was going to say, you know what? We're them too. I over commit sometimes.
Melissa Riccobono:
Me too.
Norma Crosby:
I think it's important for them to understand that their leaders are humans too. And that it isn't the end of you if you make a mistake or if you over commit, but you try to do better next time.
Melissa Riccobono:
I love that. And I always tell people, everybody, my own kids, anybody I work with, I would love it if you can follow through with every single thing you say you're going to do, but life happens. It gets in the way. Just don't disappear. If you communicate with me, if you are straightforward, and I don't even care if you don't want to share every single reason behind why.
It's great if you do feel comfortable and you want to share, and I'm always here to help, especially if it's life stuff that's getting in the way that's really difficult and you need somebody to listen to that. But even if you can't bring yourself to share all the whys, the hardest thing for me is when somebody says they're going to do all this stuff and then the phrase now I think is ghost. They ghost you and they just disappear.
And so I just tell people all the time, just don't disappear, communicate. Just say, "You know what? I thought I could do this. I can't." And then I know where I stand. Or "I thought I could do all this. I can't do all of it, but I can do this piece of it. " And then you can move on. You can move on as long as you have information. If you have no information, that's where the problems really begin to creep up.
Anil Lewis:
Sure. And the fundamental piece is holding them accountable, but recognizing that we need to support them toward that end. Just like Norma said, neither of us, when no one comes to that with the skillset already in place and what a great opportunity to create leaders by developing them, by giving them these opportunities to be heard and valued and appreciated and guided. So I think that's the crux of what we need to be doing in those particular spaces. Let's hear from Gene.
Gene Kim:
My story falls somewhere in between Kinshuk and Manahil's, which is maybe why they put me in between them up here. So in 2019, I found the Federation as a national scholarship winner. And much like Kinshuk's first introduction into our movement, I was a very shy, socially anxious and awkward 18-year-old who got shot straight into Las Vegas (Anil laughs). But during this crazy week, Tim Elder and Jordyn Castor from my California affiliate really made it a point to grab breakfast with me. Now, I was still nervous.
It was a very fancy breakfast spot somewhere I was not used to going to. And I was so nervous that I didn't know what to pick. So I ended up picking a bagel and cream cheese (Anil and the audience laughs) at a fancy breakfast place. And I was like, "Man, it's not a good first impression." But apparently that damage wasn't too bad because a few months later in October, Tim Elder called me and said, "Hey, I want you to come to this networking dinner we have going on.
It's like 15 minutes from your place and I think it will be a great time." What he didn't tell me though was that he was actually inviting me to an entire weekend of the California state convention (Audience laughs).
So then through a series of accidental events, I ended up finding myself as the secretary of this thing called the California Association of Blind Students. And then I started doing student work. But the thing is, I noticed that the students, if I can be candid here, back then, this was about six years ago, we're kind of off on our own doing our own thing. Cricket Bidleman was the president at the time, and we simply just did our own student things, our own calls.
We didn't have affiliate members showing up to our calls. There's a chance that some of our affiliate leaders may not even have known when our calls were. And it's that miscommunication, that kind of siloing of our student activities really basically gave me this perception that student division work was just student stuff. And we could not really participate, maybe we're not qualified enough or welcomed to contribute to the affiliate work.
So this led me to join the National Association of Blind Students to continue that student work to have a broader impact. But then again, I felt this choice, similar to what Manahil was talking about. And for me personally, I was very busy with school and other things. So I decided I can either help at the local level or I can help at the national level.
And to an 18-year-old who is really excited and wants to make a big impact, when you say the word national, that sounds very flashy, right (Anil chuckle)? So then I left the state work and then started doing national student work. And the last couple of short stories that I'll share is that an opportunity last year came to me to join the Kenneth Jernigan Leadership and Service Program, the inaugural cohort (audience claps), yes.
And for this program, you are supposed to ask two affiliate presidents to write you a letter of recommendation to serve as your mentors throughout the entire duration, the one year of the program. Now, I ended up asking the wonderful Jessica Beecham and Pam Allen, but you'll notice Tim Elder wasn't on that list.
And it's not because I didn't have a great relationship with Tim Elder, but because I had been helping out with the national student work and interacting with Pam and Jessica, I felt more comfortable. I felt like I could relate to their stories a little bit more just with their personalities. And I felt really bad at National Convention, I ran into Tim Elder in the presidential suite and I felt really guilty. I felt a little weird if I'm being honest, but he still treated me very warmly and we had a very great conversation.
And because he was seeing all of the great work I was doing at the national student level, he invited me to help out with other initiatives like the state scholarship committee on the state level. And that's the other thing, right? It takes time to build up that credibility to establish that trust between affiliate leadership and student leadership, especially when students have limited time and are interested in other things and we're still maturing in a lot of ways. I'll share another story for a little bit later in this panel, but Tim really took a shot on me.
And because of that, I ended up getting more involved in the state community, getting to know our state affiliate leaders and handling different initiatives. And now I'm actually really sad to be leaving California to start my PhD in Massachusetts. I'm sure there'll be a great community there (small cheer and applause from the audience), but I feel like I'm just starting out in California and now I'm going to be leaving. So thank you to Tim Elder for taking a shot on me.
Melissa Riccobono:
That is such a powerful story. And that's exactly what I was trying to say before. That is exactly what happened to me. Our student division was very siloed. We didn't have a local chapter in the Madison area. And so we were sort of that local chapter/student division all rolled into one, but because we were a student division, we didn't really make room for other people that weren't students. And so as soon as Mark became president in Wisconsin, he said, no, we need a chapter.
This is our capital city. We need a chapter now again. And there's lots of adults that can be a part of this that aren't students that are working age and they need a place to go. And I was the same way. Well, why? We've been doing fine. We're just doing student things (chuckles). And finally, I realized, oh, wait, it's all one big thing.
We're all one Federation. It's not just student stuff. We also are a part of the bigger organization. And I think that's sometimes really hard for students and even sometimes local chapters to truly feel a part of that affiliate as a whole. Norma, I don't know what you do in Texas. You have a huge affiliate. What do you do to try to help people understand that they're not just little silos over here or over there, that you're all one big team?
Norma Crosby:
Well, I'm not always successful at it. I'll say that (Anil chuckles). The students do tend to congregate together and stay away from us old folks and do their own thing. But one way, I used the example a few minutes ago about the work we're going to do to try to start an adopted grandparent type program. And one of the things that we're going to do with that, that we've already started with that is we have a senior group in Texas too.
It's not a division, it's a group of seniors that get together every month and Glenn oversees that. And so he's going to work with the DEI committee to kind of help with that whole silo nonsense. And they need the guidance, I think, from the seniors. And it also deals with generational differences.
It's generations working together to make this happen. It's not the seniors just overseeing the young folks, but it's them being there as a guidepost and being there to help them maneuver, to navigate what it is that they want to do, to hopefully to help make them successful at doing what they want to accomplish. And I think intergenerational contact is really important. And the other thing, the thing that Gene said that struck me though is local versus national.
Some people get very, very much interested only in local issues and they don't realize what the bigger picture is. And then some people are just the opposite. And the fact is there is no national without the local and vice versa. So one of the things that we do, we have a large at large chapter in Texas. We have about sixty members of our at large chapter.
And one of the, I was the first president of that chapter. And one of the things that was a goal of mine at that time is to get them out of those rural communities, to get them to come to things like National Convention and Washington Seminar so that they understood what it is that the Federation's all about. And I think that's a goal for me with students too, is to get them off their campus and get them involved in other activities as well.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah. For those listeners who don't know, the at large chapter is a chapter that's put together by many of the affiliates to help individuals who don't have an actual local physical chapter that they can attend, still get involved in the organization on a local level. And I think it does a great job of creating an opportunity. And also in many instances, it lets people know when there are individuals in their local neighborhoods that they end up can subsequently develop their own physical chapter.
I have a different perspective. Well, I guess not different, but well, I guess it may be different. When people say siloes, I don't necessarily think that it's a negative thing. I think siloes are negative when that's all there is. I think that the students having that cluster of peer support, a lot of people use the word clique. I don't think is a bad word.
I think that's a good word when you have a clique or a group of individuals that you can interact with, they just get problematic when they become exclusive so no one else is able to be part of it and/or also soul, meaning that that's all that exists for those individuals. I love our gaps, Georgia Association of Blind Students, very much a clique, very supportive one another.
I mean, even as adults now, they still have a very good relationship, but it wasn't exclusive. Any students who wanted to be part of that fund was welcomed, so that was good. And then they also didn't just solely exist at a student organization. Many of them were active in national activity. So I think finding that group of individuals, I think that Melissa was saying earlier, if you're going to be a leader, you got to have a team.
Finding a group of individuals that you can count on and depend on is important, but not to the exclusion of being aware of the broader organization and without the exclusion of actually participating in the broader organization. So yeah, there was a lot in this discussion. What's interesting is all three of us have served as affiliate presidents, and I think that's why hopefully individuals listen to what we're saying here because we're speaking from our lived experience of how to build this bridge between the students.
But I really love that as part of the panel discussion, we also ask the students, what is their responsibility for building this bridge? How can they take a more proactive role in making sure that as they transition from student leaders, that opportunities are afforded to them to be part of the national organization. So let's take a listen to their responses.
Kinshuk Tella:
But to my students, I know you have a thousand distractions on campus. I know it's hard and your schedules are so variable, but the growth and opportunity in this organization will carry you so far. And don't think that you have to get involved after you're out of school to be involved in your affiliate because it starts now. And it's now that you have the opportunity to form the mentorships and connections and have the community around you that will carry you your whole life.
Students, wherever you go in the country, I know you're always not going to be in the same state for your career as you are where you grew up, where you went to school. In my personal experience, I've traveled all over the world, not world, the country, and I've lived in different states. And each state I've been to, I've always felt so comfortable being by myself because I know no matter where I go in this country, there's an affiliate, a chapter nearby, a community of Federationists that are here to support me. And that's something that's a privilege to have.
Gene Kim:
For the students in the room, I really encourage you. I know it can be daunting to enter new spaces. Maybe people are older than you. Maybe you feel like people are more experienced than you, but there's a reason you're asked to be in this space. You belong here, you are valued, and you have a lot to offer. Oftentimes we say, "Oh, students are the leaders of tomorrow. Let's invest in our students for the next generation." That's great, but you're also here today. You can make that impact. You are the leaders of today (audience applauds). So take ownership of that. Take find different ways to get involved and whether even it's a very small task, get involved.
Manahil Jafri:
I would like everyone, all my new students in this room to go to your affiliate and find a mentor. Okay, please, please, you know, I mentioned, I talked a little bit about my story, but as we mentioned, I know a lot of you whose first convention it is who is at the NABS meeting mentioned how awesome and exciting it is to get involved in NABS.
And it is, and we would love you to get involved in NABS, but also do not underestimate the power that your affiliate has. Please go sit with your affiliate, find them during banquet, and there is so much that you can learn from them. And communication is the key to success. So please communicate and please see the power of it. Thank you (audience applauds).
Anil Lewis:
That is the key. And that's what we're all about, mentoring. So let's go build the National Federation of the Blind (audience cheers).
Melissa Riccobono:
Wow, you even echoed a little bit there, Anil. That was like the voice of God almost (laughs).
Anil Lewis:
That's Will, Will does that. Yeah (Melissa laughs).
I need to give him a little bonus, a little Christmas bonus (Norma laughs). Yeah. It's interesting as I listen to that, there was so much more that the students, but we only had such a limited amount of time. So in parts of it, it seemed like I was kind of rushing them along, just so I didn't throw the agenda off altogether. Really quickly, before I get your thoughts, I just want to tell our listeners.
Now, if you want to go listen to the full presentation, you can go to nfb.org/conventions and you can pull up not only this presentation, but presentations from previous conventions, years past. But I do encourage you if this topic is of interest to you to go back and listen to the full recording, because there's a whole bunch of rich information shared. What are your thoughts, guys?
Norma Crosby:
So I think one of the responsibilities students have is the concept of giving back. And I've been talking a lot this afternoon about intergenerational contact. And I think one of the things that I think students would actually appreciate is being asked to teach. Learning doesn't always come from, or teaching doesn't always come from the older member.
Give them an opportunity to do and let them take on the responsibility of teaching, maybe whether it's technology, which they're so much more geared toward than some of our older folks, or whether it's cane travel, or whether it's just helping someone who's not as far along in their journey as the blind student might be, giving them that responsibility and allowing them to grow by helping other people grow
Melissa Riccobono:
I think that's so important. It can even go the other way. So Oriana has really found her passion by volunteering at our NFB Braille Enrichment for Literacy and Learning Academy and helping with childcare, both now at state convention and at national convention, and now babysitting all around the neighborhood and has this passion for helping kids. And I'm not just saying it because I'm her mom, but she's really good at it.
She's especially good at those little wiggly kids that can't sit still because she used to be a really little wiggly kid (Melissa, Anil and Norma laugh) that couldn't sit still. And she's really good with those kids who are blind with functional vision because she was once a little kid that was blind who had functional vision. And like, when am I blind? When am I not? Just kind of trying to figure that all out on her own and helping other kids figure it out.
And then also, I guess, having parents then see her too as a blind young adult who is, I mean, young woman, not adult yet. Good Lord, I'm not ready for that (Melissa and Anil laugh), but a blind young woman who has confidence and who has skills and who is using those skills to help. I mean, all of that is really, really powerful. And so I love that idea of teaching and asking. And I would say to students too, I think it's unfortunate and we all do it, we're a people's movement and we're all people.
And so because we're people, we're not perfect beings. I think sometimes though, if you had one experience that didn't go quite the way you wanted it to, or you had one chapter meeting where it seemed like it was boring and you didn't know what you were getting out of it by sitting there. I think sometimes people are very quick to jump and say, "I didn't feel welcomed there.
That's not for me." Instead of thinking about how it might be made even just a little bit better if, and then trying to make that if become a reality or giving it that two, three, four times of meetings and not just one until you get comfortable, until you can find that mentor, it's hard in new spaces, right? Some people are very shy and it's very difficult to kind of find your people.
And I think some chapters are a little harder to kind of break into and find your people than others. It doesn't mean your people aren't there. It just means that you might need to work a little bit harder at finding them. Now, by all means, if you go three or four or five times and you still don't feel welcome, then I think it's really important to talk to your affiliate president about that or some other mentor in your affiliate because if you're not feeling welcome, maybe there are other people that aren't as well.
And one of our brands is being welcoming. And so maybe trying to find a different chapter or an at large chapter, not just your student division, but other places where you can be a part of what's going on, but try not to be quick to judge and try not to be quick to just say, "It's not for me if you really haven't given it a true try."
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, I don't think I have anything else to add to that other than echoing the sentiment that all of the three students shared about taking personal responsibility to find a way to fit in. I think that one of the hardest parts about that is, one, there's an expectation that the leadership is going to find a way to use you as a resource because they see you're so talented, which unfortunately, sometimes that's not going to happen with leadership.
And then two, what was similar to me, even though I wasn't a student, finding where you feel you could fit in, but then basically feeling like you're being rejected at every opportunity you kind of present that you can be helpful that's being pushed aside. But I encourage people to try to find ways to fit in. And if you do feel like you're at a space where your value is not really appreciated, then I encourage individuals to go out and again, find mentors.
I know that it was said, go into your local affiliate and find a mentor. And if you're unsuccessful doing that, the organization is bigger and broader than an affiliate. I know I would not have been prone to become a leader in the organization had I not developed a relationship with other individuals outside of Georgia at the time because the dynamics here were just really frustrating.
So I think, I guess I have more to say about this than I thought. I think the key for me and hopefully for others is to realize the real value of the organization beyond the personalities involved in the organization and then recognizing that learning to interact with the various personalities is just a skillset you're going to have to adopt or learn and grow to be successful as a leader in the organization.
But hands down, if you really look at the National Federation of the Blind for the systems change and the impact that it has on the lives of lind people, and you really have a heart and a mindset to be that change agent, to have that impact, then there's no other place for you to be. And you have to just find a way, want to say, get in where you fit in. Just find a way that your talents and resources can be used to build the National Federation of the Blind because we need each and every person to do so.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, that's a really good point because sometimes there are personalities for whatever reason that you might not click with for a million different reasons. So that's a really, really good point. Absolutely.
Norma Crosby:
I was going to say, I think that doing what Manahil did is really important. And that is being vulnerable and being willing to say, "Hey, I'm not," whether it's to your local chapter president or your affiliate president, "I'm not feeling the love. I'm not feeling as welcome as I as I feel like I should." And sometimes having that conversation, I know I never intentionally would make someone feel unwelcome. That doesn't mean I've never done it. And so I think being able to talk with one another is incredibly important.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah. As Manahil said, communication is the key. So important. And also, I mean, I would also just add, because you're a member of the National Federation of the Blind, there are so many people. I know if you, even if you're not in Texas, if you really liked what Norma had to say and you decided to call her tomorrow, Norma would be tickled pink to hear from you and so excited about talking to you.
And if you really think that Anil is the person that you think that you're most like or whatever, and you talk to Anil or President Riccobono, "Oh, I can't call him. He's the president." Well, right, but he's your president. He's working for you. And I think sometimes people are so afraid to approach that they really miss opportunities. There's a young man that I, well, he's not super young. I guess he's older than I am.
But anyway (laughs), there's a guy that I've been mentoring and I kind of tell him all the time, talk to so and so. "Well, why... He doesn't know me," doesn't have to know you. He's a staff member of the National Federation of the Blind. You're a member of the National Federation of the Blind. That's good enough. Call him up. And that is really, really true all the way across the board.
And if you're not a phone person, then email, but don't feel like you can't reach out, make those connections because we're all human, we're all in this together. And like everybody has said, we truly do, and it sounds so cliche, but it is so true. We do need all of us because all of us have something a little bit different to bring.
Anil Lewis:
Sure. I just want to take a quick minute to level set expectations to what Melissa's saying is very true. To me personally, and I'm sure shared by other leaders in the organization, we by no means ever want to feel like we're untouchable, but because we are out front, we end up getting a lot of individuals that are seeking to develop those relationships with us.
And to be honest with you, sometimes the best thing I can do is refer you to someone else who I think has an ability to interact with you on a level that meets more of the things that you're interested in and has that time. I mean, I just recently attended the Pennsylvania state convention, and again, making myself available, talked to some members there. And then there are several people that called up after and said, "Oh, I would like to be able to work with you and maybe you could mentor me."
And if I was taking the responsibility of doing it with everyone who reached out to me, I wouldn't be able to do anything else and I wouldn't even be able to meet that need. So I try to be very careful and tell them, "I want to be accessible for what you need within the bandwidth that I'm able to provide it, but I'm also going to make sure that I don't leave you just twisting in the win. So when I refer you to a different individual or a different resource, it's not me being dismissive, it's me being responsive."
And I think a lot of people don't understand that it's not me not wanting to, it's me recognizing that I don't have the bandwidth, but I'm going to help you find someone who does. So I think that's what's important for people to understand because there's so many people within this organization with hearts. And just because I'm in this leadership role doesn't mean that I'm even the premier or prime or proper person to be serving in that role for you. So if I can find someone who's going to be much more effective, it would behoove me to do that in the best interest of you, myself and the organization.
Melissa Riccobono:
I love that. And I think students too, if another younger student or even an older person comes to you as a student and says, "I want or need this, that or the other," it's important to have those boundaries. It's important to say, "I'd love to help you, but I really can't, but this person over here would be great." And yeah, I love that all the way around. So true.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, and to that, I think that, well, I'll offer Norma an opportunity if you have any final comments before we bring it to a close.
Norma Crosby:
I just would say to students, you are wanted, you are needed. We can't do it without you. We want to build the Federation. There are still so many needs that exist out there for blind people. We're not done with the work that we started in 1940, and you are a critical piece to that work. So please join us and help us build.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, and I would offer just really bringing up what Norma said earlier, if you're expecting us to be perfect in our roles of bringing you into this leadership space, then that's unfortunate because we have to be honest with ourselves to recognize that we're continuing to learn even as identified leaders in the organization. So please offer us grace and our ability to interact with you, and then we will offer you our love and support in your effort to be part of this organization. How about you, Melissa?
Melissa Riccobono:
I mean, I don't think I have anything else to add. I just have really enjoyed this discussion as always with all of you and hope that our listeners are able to get something out of the discussion that will resonate with them.
Anil Lewis:
Awesome. Appreciate you guys. I would say let's go build the Federation, but that's off brand for the podcast (Norma laughs). So let me just say, remember, you can live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono:
Blindness is not what holds you back.
Announcer:
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