Announcer:
Welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast presented by the National Federation of the Blind, the transformative membership and advocacy organization of blind Americans. Live the life you want.
Melissa Riccobono:
Hello and welcome to the Nation's Blind Podcast. I'm Melissa Riccibono and I am here with the man who is actually coming to you from Baltimore for a change.
Anil Lewis:
Hey! How about that?
Melissa Riccobono:
So we have Denise Avant, who I believe has been on our podcast before. She is a member of the tenBroek Board of the National Federation of the Blind, and she is from Chicago, Illinois. How are you, Denise?
Denise Avant:
I am doing great. So glad that you guys have asked me to join you this afternoon. And yes, I have been on other podcasts with you all during convention and even at other times. So I'm always glad to come and be part of your podcast.
Anil Lewis:
Sure. And you're still a co-chair of our membership committee or are you chair of the membership group?
Denise Avant:
I am chair of the membership committee.
Anil Lewis:
Okay, got it. Yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh, well, no wonder you're on this podcast because we're talking a lot about membership today. And we're really trying to break it down and help people understand what being a member of the National Federation of the Blind means, but more importantly, what it doesn't mean, because there's so many rumors and misconceptions out there about what the NFB believes and what we don't. And so we're hoping that we can sort of break that down a little bit and talk about that. And Denise, I'm sure you get a lot of questions from people who are new members or who want to be members about these kinds of things. Is that true?
Denise Avant:
That's correct, because I currently serve as chapter president of our Chicago chapter. I've been chapter president for five years now. And oftentimes I do get calls from people asking, "Well, what does the National Federation of the Blind do? What do we offer? What will I learn?" And most are new to blindness. Others may not have had as much exposure to independent travel and living and things like that. So they come not knowing. And of course, myself and other more experienced Federationists, we are tasked with the responsibility and of trying to really explain who we are and what we're trying to accomplish and what we're trying to really help them accomplish for themselves.
Anil Lewis:
That begs the question of independence, right? So I guess we start there. What does independence mean?
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah. What does it mean to you, Anil?
Anil Lewis:
When I hear it now, I reflect back on some work that we were doing back when we were looking at reasonable accommodations and all that kind of thing. So what I've adopted as mine is having autonomy and the power to make your own decisions that create little to no inconvenience to others. So I define that by saying, "Yeah, I want to be able to do what I want. I want autonomy in doing what I want, but that doesn't give me the right to make someone else do what I need to do in order to get that degree of autonomy."
Melissa Riccobono:
Denise, what about you?
Denise Avant:
And I agree with that. I want to be able to go to the places I want to go, do the things that I want to do and have the experiences that I want to have. And I don't want to impose on people. I don't want people to feel like they have to take care of me. If I need to request assistance, I can do that. But I try to limit that because I don't want to impose on people, but yet I still want to get out and be out in the public because the public doesn't meet and see a lot of blind people.
And sometimes that has to do with why people in the public act the way they do, because they kind of put themselves in the position, "Well, if I were blind, I wouldn't be able to do this. I wouldn't be able to walk. I wouldn't be able to stand up without holding onto something (Melissa laughs)." And it's like, it's not true. So I really do want to leave people with the impression, "No, you don't have to take care of me, but if you could assist me with some directions or getting to a place, that would be great. But if I don't need you, I'm just going to go on my own."
Anil Lewis:
Melissa?
Melissa Riccobono:
I think for me, it's really a work in progress. I think that there was a time in my life where I felt like independence had to mean that I did everything all by myself all the time. And then in a variety of ways, partly by actually reading Dr. Jernigan's wonderful speech, The Nature of Independence, which is linked to this episode.
And if you have not read this, I'm going to scream it from the rooftops. And even if you have read it, read it again. It is such an empowering speech and really helped me understand more than anything else did or any other interactions I had with any other people about what the NFB truly means when we talk about independence. And so I agree with both of you that it means all of the things that you said.
But I think for me, it also means having the belief in myself that I can get things done and that my blindness is not always going to be an obstacle. And if I don't know how to do something, knowing that I can talk to other people and say, "Hey, have you ever done this before?" And then decide, okay, I could learn how to, I don't know, I'm not a baker, but this is the only (laughs) analogy that's coming to me. I could learn how to make a pie crust from scratch. I could. I have no doubt that...
Anil Lewis:
I could teach you.
Melissa Riccobono:
Okay! You could teach (Anil chuckles). All right, great. I don't like to bake all that much. That just sounds kind of boring to me. I would much rather buy the pie crust from the grocery store and put the filling in it and put it in the oven and bam, be good to go and be done because I don't get joy out of that cooking process.
Now, you could learn to edit the podcast, but you might not get joy out of that process like Will does, but it's knowing that, yeah, if I want to, I could. And it's also though, for me, sort of testing my theories a little bit at a time and really figuring out, am I doing this because I think I have to do it this way? Am I doing this because I don't feel like I can do it any other way? Or am I doing it because yeah, I could do it a different way, but you know what? This is just easier or this is more cost effective right now. Or this is insert the why.
Anil Lewis:
I think the key to this whole discussion is my, I guess we'll call it definition somewhat different than Denise's definition is somewhat different than your definition. And I think that that's the key. It has to be individualized, but Christian, one of our members from Louisiana said the best. She says, "Independence looks different on everyone." And I think that's the real important piece because I think if we don't look at it from that perspective, then we think that there is one clear universal definition that should be shared by everyone. And then that's when we get into places where we disagree and disconnect.
Melissa Riccobono:
I love that. And I got to say, and we're going to talk about this in a little while, but independence looked a little bit different for me when I was younger and before I got diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome, because once you have something else going on, sometimes the independence has to look a little bit different because there's other things at play. And so I think that's really important too. But before we get to all this, we do need to stop for a quick message. So let's do that. You're listening to the Nation's Blind Podcast.
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Melissa Riccobono:
All right, we are back. Thank you for that message. Now, should we go into the common misconceptions? Or Denise, did you have anything else to say about independence before we go into some common misconceptions or some things that people might want to dive into with us?
Denise Avant:
Well, one of the things that I just want to say, I think what we try to do is raise people's expectations because people come to us not have ever tried a thing, whatever it is, whether it's grilling a steak or doing a pie crust from scratch. And it's like, "No, I can't do it. I'm blind. I just can't do it."
And it's like, "Well, why don't I introduce you to some other blind people? And they will tell you about some of the things that they do, including making a pie crust from scratch." So I think that one of the things that we try to do, and maybe part of this is where misunderstanding comes in at is what we do try to raise expectations because we are talking to people who have never had the experience. And so we are trying to raise those expectations and debunk some of the myths about the capabilities of blind people.
Melissa Riccobono:
I love that and sometimes the worst myths that we have to struggle against are the myths that we tell ourselves because it's what society has told us or because we might believe something in our know something in our head, but just don't believe it in our hearts until we see somebody doing it or we feel like, well, they've been blind all their lives. Of course, they can do that. I just became blind three years ago, four years ago. I can't do that, or I'm not them. And so I think that is a really good point that we're all, again, that comes back to so beautifully, it looks different on everybody. And yeah, it does.
Anil Lewis:
You touched on something so powerful because it's not even about just being newly blind. Some individuals who've been blind for an extended period of time have really good skills have still been shaped by society's perpetual bombardment of that lack of capacity. You mentioned "Nature of Independence," and I think this is in there as well, which was really powerful for me. Dr. Jernigan was saying he was walking through like a cafeteria line.
He had a tray and he had a beverage on it. And as he was walking, heard the glass hit the floor and of course it spilled. And he said to the person he was walking with, "They will think I did that because I'm blind." But the reality is it wasn't his glass (Melissa laughs). It was the friend who was walking with glass. So I mean, even he had been bombarded by it to someone like Dr. Jernigan second guessed. So those things I think are really powerful to really recognize because that keeps us all humble.
Melissa Riccobono:
But there are definitely myths and misconceptions about what we think all Federationists think. And so it says, "The NFB has a superiority complex and scorns all blind people that use assistance such as using a wheelchair or sighted guide."
Anil Lewis:
That's correct (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
(Pause) You think so (Melissa and Denise laugh)? Wow.
Denise Avant:
Wow!
Anil Lewis:
I love the pregnant pause.
Melissa Riccobono:
We're done here (Melissa and Anil laugh).
Anil Lewis:
I wish...
Melissa Riccobono:
Thanks, Anil! Moving on (Melissa and Anil laugh).
Denise Avant:
I was going to say, what did he just say?
Melissa Riccobono:
Do you think that's correct? Anil says that's correct. Denise?
Anil Lewis:
That is a perception. That is definitely a true perception.
Melissa Riccobono:
Oh, a percep... Oh, that's what's correct.
Denise Avant:
Now he clarifies.
Melissa Riccobono:
Okay, now I'm with you (Anil and Melissa laugh).
Anil Lewis:
I love the pregnant pause, so that was perfect (Melissa laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
So yes, that is definitely ... And another one I hear a lot is "Real NFB members don't use paratransit."
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, thats correct as well, yeah.
Melissa Riccobono:
And let me back up. I think the hardest part with a lot of these misconceptions is that people have truly had conversations with others and they have truly felt as if those other people have told them or have really looked down on them or had an attitude with them. Now, whether the other person did or whether the first person was just so set in their mind that of course they were going to be scorned, that they were just looking for any kind of negative comment whatsoever, I mean, that's all up for debate because of course, communication takes two people, but I think it is hard once you've gotten that message and feel like you have truly gotten that message from someone who claims to be a member of the National Federation of the Blind. And then we come along and say, "No, no, no, no. It's not really this," which is the truth, but how do we help people really experience our truth and give them the reason to try again if their first interactions with the NFB weren't that great?
Anil Lewis:
So Denise, how would you respond to that person that comes to you and says, "Well, I heard about you guys. You guys don't like for us to use wheelchairs in the airport."
Denise Avant:
Oh, one of the things that I would first say is that, and I do know that Dr. Jernigan talks about this sometimes, we have all kinds of blind people in our organization. And just because you meet one person who might not have explained things in the way that would be inviting, that doesn't mean that the rest of us feel that way. And we have evolved as an organization over time.
The other thing is our organization and also the Americans with Disabilities Act recognizes that people have the right to make their own choices about what do you feel is best for you to use. Now, as a member of the Federation, I will suggest some alternatives, again, just to make you aware and just to maybe encourage you to try out something. And if you feel like you want to do the way you've always been doing, that you're feeling more comfortable that way, then that's not for me to say, and I'm not going to look down on you.
If you feel more comfortable taking a wheelchair at the airport, then by all means, but also accord me the choice to say, no, I want to walk because the people in the airport insist that this is best for me. And I want to show that as a blind person, there's nothing wrong with my feet. There's nothing wrong with my legs and I can walk.
Plus, we are sedentary as it is. And so now this is a chance for me to get my exercise on. But each of us has the right to make the choice that you want to make. And one of the things that I know that we stress in the Federation is that you have the right to make your own decision what's best for you. I can show you, I can talk to you about it, but at the end of the day, the choice is going to be yours.
Anil Lewis:
You said something that's very important in that too, because I think it does work both ways. So yeah, as Melissa was saying earlier, you may run into a member who, based on the training they received, really overzealous, what did Dr. Jernigam [say]? Radical independence.
Melissa Riccobono:
Radical independence, yeah.
Anil Lewis:
They reached a space of radical independence where they're so proud of their independence that they may come off as being critical of you, not really recognize that that's where they came from too. So it may not be as inspiring or encouraging. As Denise was saying, it may not be framed in a way that sets a high expectation, but I also think there needs to be some grace to allow that person to celebrate the level of independence that they have reached.
I try to be mindful, sticking with the whole analogy of the wheelchairs. When someone travels with me and they know I'm with the Federation, sometimes they don't, when they normally would take the wheelchair, choose not to take the wheelchair because they don't want to look diminished.
And in my perception, and I don't put that burden on people, that's something that they superimpose on themselves. So once they disclose that, I'm like, "No, let's get you a wheelchair. That's fine."
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah.
Denise Avant:
Right!
Melissa Riccobono:
But I think that it's important that people should also respect the fact that I don't want the wheelchair. And I think that's the piece that gets lost. So when we're trying to normalize this whole discussion, yeah, we want to be respectful of those individuals who feel that Federationists, because it's not the organization itself, Federationists are super imposing some mythical, super blind expectation on everyone. That's not really the case. But also those individuals who haven't taken that strive toward gaining greater independence should not shun those or diminish the effort of those who have.
Because at least they're getting out there and traveling. That's what I ended up telling a friend of mine like, "Hey, you're out there." The same thing with paratransit. If you're able to get to the appointments you want to get to, and for whatever reason you aren't able or don't want to, or whatever it is, bus system doesn't work for you, trains don't work, whatever, more power to you. You're getting out, you're using the tools that are available, and that's important.
And I guess I would also say that being vulnerable and sharing our stories can be really important and really powerful. When I went to guide dog school, they had something on my ticket that basically said she needs assistance. And so I got to the airport in Minneapolis and they had a cart for me. Now, this cart driver did not speak English hardly at all.
There were other people on the cart. And I was in a position where I had no idea where this cart was driving and I could not communicate well with the driver. I was so worried I wasn't going to get to the gate where I needed to go because I didn't know if he really understood where I needed to go. And when I finally got off that cart, and yes, I did get to the gate I wanted to go to, I just decided never again, I do not ever want to give up my control again and just ride through the airport passively. I can't do that. That takes my autonomy and even the ways that I gather information.
I had no idea, had we passed a bathroom? Had we ...?
Denise Avant:
Right!
Melissa Riccobono:
Where is the food? I was just zipping along. And yeah, I mean, okay, it was fast. I'll give them that. But I had to stop and let them let other people off. And so I often will tell that story to people that the reason, here's the reason that I don't like to, but then here are times where I have taken assistance. When my dad was dying, I had little tiny baby Oriana with me.
Mark was staying back with our oldest, but I was not really, number one, I didn't have enough hands to get through security because I had this tiny little four month old, but I also was not in the head space to go around an airport and deal with people. I knew if somebody talked to me wrong or I got turned around or something happened, I was just going to break down and cry.
Anil Lewis:
Sure.
Melissa Riccobono:
And so yes, that day, I absolutely waited for the assistance, took every bit of assistance anybody would give me, every bit of kindness (laughs). And so I tell people that too, that there's all sorts of reasons. And just because you do something once doesn't mean you're going to do it all the time, or maybe it does and that's also fine. At least you're getting out there and you're doing things in a way that feels comfortable and you shouldn't have to apologize for the choice that you make.
Anil Lewis:
And you are making the choice. You are making a choice. No one's superimposing it. Yeah. I get frustrated when people, I got off the airplane and they're trying to force me to get in a wheelchair. And I try to be polite because I know that there are people who want to use the wheelchairs, but some of them get extremely aggressive.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yes.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, so it's very hard to balance that. But yeah, it's about you making your choice. When I get on public transportation, back in my radical independent days, I refused to sit up in those seats up front and everybody was trying to make me sit in the seats upfront and I defiantly went past those seats. Now my sixty-one year old self sits right there (Melissa and Anil laugh) because they're for the elderly too, not for people with disabilities (laughs).
Melissa Riccobono:
Right! That's right and you're not elderly.
Anil Lewis:
Oh yeah. I'm a AARPA, so I give myself grace (Melissa and Anil laugh). So you're absolutely right. As long as you're making a choice, I think is really important.
Melissa Riccobono:
And as long as you're, again, kind of just giving yourself that quick test, and also I think one more quick thing and then we'll move on, but especially traveling in different places, I think that's why national convention is so powerful. The airport also, but possibly less so because you're probably worried about missing your flight or whatever else. But this is something President Riccobono has said, and I think it's so true. Truly, what is the worst thing that's going to happen?
If you set out on your own and you go in this space, what's the worst thing that's going to happen? Well, I mean, you could get lost, but that's about it, right? There's not a big sinkhole in general waiting to swallow you up. You're not on an active taxi way, so there's not airplanes that are going to give you any trouble, run you over.
There's not, I mean, if you're inside, there's not even any traffic to run you over. I think in a lot of ways, traveling inside and gaining confidence doing that and getting comfortable with that, that's almost easier than traveling outside because outside there's many other variabilities, and I mean, especially traffic. And I understand why people get worried about crossing streets, especially big major intersections.
I mean, drivers are not, just because they have sight doesn't mean that they're using it and drivers are horrible. I mean, all accidents are caused by sighted people in cars (laughs). So I guess that's kind of the challenge. And that really helped change my mindset because I had such a worry growing up, I thought sighted people never got lost (Anil laughs). I just thought if I were...
Anil Lewis:
My mom never got lost. She says, "I was always finding new places to get to my destination. I'm never lost (chuckles)."
Melissa Riccobono:
But see, you saw that though. You understood, when I was growing up, and I think sometimes people that are totally blind get the message because sometimes we're taught with travel instructors who really sort of push in this route travel, that this is the way you get from this to this. You don't vary on this route. This is the safest route. This is the best route for you. And then if you feel like you can't follow that route or you take a wrong turn, at least for me, it was really difficult.
I felt like I was failing. I wasn't following those directions, that I wasn't doing it perfectly the way that the travel instructor wanted me to do it. And so I think that's actually why structured discovery and letting blind kids know that everybody gets lost and it's truly okay. And here's what you do when you are lost and here's how you can ask directions. And here's what you do if you don't think you got real good directions, you ask somebody else (chuckles). But I think it's just really important.
Anil Lewis:
And that's why the Federation doesn't like guide dogs, right, Denise?
Denise Avant:
Definitely not true (Anil and Melissa laugh). We love guide dogs.
Anil Lewis:
(Laughs) NFB, they don't even allow the students at the centers to use the guide dogs, right?
Denise Avant:
Well, that's not true either. Well, first of all, just let me say, if you really want to know the real information, just come to a convention, a national convention. And there are our share of guide dogs. We have a whole division that is devoted to guide dog use that some of, it has some of our more avid members in it. And we really devote the energy to making sure that guide dog users and their dogs are comfortable in our spaces, both at our national and our state convention.
And I go back to one of the stories that Ever Lee Harrison tells that when she came to her first convention, she saw there were canes tapping and guide dogs nipping at her legs (Anil and Melissa laugh) and all of that kind of stuff. So obviously that's not true. We've always just emphasized to people that the handler is always the person in charge.
And some people think it's the guide dog that does everything. And that's the thing that we have tried to educate the public and other blind people on is that, no, you're still in charge of everything. But again, if you want to use a guide dog, then that should be your choice. Now, we do advocate that you should be a good cane traveler, which is what they try to teach us. They tell you this at the guide dog schools, many of the reputable ones.
And I know our training centers, because I've asked, they say, "You can bring your guide dog. You can walk to the class with him. And when lunch is, you can play and walk him and feed him and even after class and on weekends. But when we're doing classwork, we are going to ask you to use your cane" because at the end of the day, if you're a good cane traveler and are super aware of cardinal directions, that'll really help your relationship with your guide dog because you don't have the poor dog out there trying to figure out things for you.
I'm not a guide dog handler, never have been, but anything that I think would strengthen that bond and would help you be a better traveler even when you're using a dog, you're so much the better. But no, I think our training centers try to encourage you to be a strong cane user. You never know. Your dog might get sick or there may be places that you want to go like a concert. Now, do you really want to take your dog to something where music is blasting and all of those kinds of things and there's crowds of people? I don't think so. But I'll leave that to Melissa (Meissa laughs) because I know that you've worked a dog.
Melissa Riccobono:
Yeah, no, and that's exactly right. I've worked two dogs and I think it's also very interesting. Sometimes people, me included, get dogs because they feel like they're going to be able to walk faster, be more confident. And that was somewhat true, but it also worked in a really interesting way. Once I was more confident and once I knew I had to keep traveling to different places to keep things fresh for me and my dog, then I just got to be a more confident traveler in general.
And then just like you said, Denise, when I needed to use my cane or wanted to go somewhere where my dog just wouldn't be a good place or I just didn't want to worry about having a dog, my honeymoon (Anil laughs). Yeah, I could have probably taken the dog with me. I just didn't want to worry about it (laughs).
And then I used my cane. And to me, it was never really, I'm only going to use a dog or I'm only going to use a cane. It was sort of this very fluid process where it just sort of situation by situation kind of became what I decided to do. And then my last dog retired and then passed away.
And I haven't gotten a dog since, mostly because now I work a lot from home and I just don't feel like I get out enough. Or if I got a dog, now maybe it would be good because then I would get out more and walk. But do I really want to walk because I have a dog that I have to walk or do I want to walk (laughs) because I really want to walk? And so far it's been because I really want to walk (laughs).
Anil Lewis:
One of the decisions I made around that is I considered getting a dog, but at that particular time, my life was just, it just wasn't, in my opinion, stable enough to really be fair to the animal because I've seen so many guide dog users that aren't really taking into consideration that their lifestyle may not be conducive to really working the dog properly. I've seen some really good guide dog users that can do it in a lot of different ways, which I, well, to be honest with you, sometimes I envy them because I think that the key in this in so many ways is the cane and the guide dog, they're tools for travel and they both have their advantages and disadvantages. I mean, a friend of mine said it very succinctly.
She says, "A cane is an object detector and a guide dog is an object avoider." So in those instances where I'm moving through crowds of people and there's no real way to tactilely or audibly discern a path, I wish I did have a guide dog (laughs) to cut through all the nonsense and the people and everything.
But in those instances where those cues around different environments and doing echo location with my cane tip and definitely getting the texture change, not just under my feet, but with the cane and those and detecting, "Oh, there's a flower pot," getting those really tactile cues, guide dogs avoid those and you never get a sense of what those are. So again, I think it's important that people understand the benefits of the various tools that are out there and then also make conscious decisions as to which ones they choose to use.
But related to the training centers, when I was at the Louisiana Center, there was an individual that had a guide dog. But I think that the distinction people miss is you're there for cane travel instruction. So no, our centers aren't guide dog training schools. So if you want to go and use your dog on a lesson when you're supposed to be learning how to use the cane, then no, we're not going to do that.
That's like, okay, you're supposed to be learning math and you want to use your calculator. No, that's not going to be allowed (Melissa and Denise chuckle). So I think it's important for people to understand that particular distinction. And I think that the core of all of this too is we as an organization are very proud of the influence that we've had over cane travel. I mean, Dr. Jernigan, again, through the "Iowa experiment" really changed the dynamics around cane travel.
That's when we started using the long white cane, started really changing the field within structured discovery and understanding all of those. So I think that some people misinterpret our pride, which is rightful and righteous to be something that says any other way of traveling is unacceptable. And I think that's just not true. And then the last thing I'll say around this is we've also fought so hard for blind people themselves to be cane travelers.
And that we're also as an organization very proud of the fact that we recognize that some of the best travel instructors are individuals with that lived experience. And I'm proud of the fact and really glad that my cane instructor at the Louisiana Center was a blind person. I learned so much in that experience than I had through any of the traditional cane travel training I've had prior.
Melissa Riccobono:
So I guess the question then becomes, what do we say to blind people who have other disabilities? And I kind of did go over this just a little bit because now I do have chronic fatigue syndrome and being born blind, I'm used to being blind. When I was first diagnosed with chronic fatigue, that was a whole new ball of wax for me.
I had no idea what to do because all of a sudden everything that I had always just been able to count on wasn't working for me anymore, particularly short term memory when I was really, before I got good treatment, I thought I was in the early stages of dementia. I really did. And even places that I had traveled often, it was like I was constantly just walking in a fog. And there were definitely times where I was outside and thought, I mean, you're making yourself safe, but all things being equal, you probably really shouldn't be out here right now.
You're not at the top of your game even slightly. And so yeah, it definitely meant for me taking more assistance, not forcing myself to problem solve and figure out travel at the turn of a dime anymore, do things that helped me conserve energy, even signing up for paratransit, not because I couldn't take a bus, not because I couldn't take an Uber, but I had lots of doctor's appointments all of a sudden and I figured out, wow, it's a lot cheaper.
And we actually have a very good paratransit company where we can pay cash for rides and they're actually, they come early or on time 95 percent of the time or more and they get you where you need to go and there's no must, no fuss. And yeah, I'm happy to be able to save a little bit of money and I'm more happy to be able to save my energy.
And so I guess it's the people that have other things going on that I see more and more feeling like they have to explain themselves. "I would do this but.." I don't know, what could we say to people who either feel like they don't fit in or who feel like their disability sort of complicates things? Everybody's welcome. We need all blind people. So what would you say, Denise?
Denise Avant:
Well, I do want to say, as a leader, as a chapter president, I'm aware that we have an accessibility policy and that is designed that we make sure that our physical space is accessible so that because we might actually get somebody who was on crutches or recently about a few months ago, one of our members broke her ankle. And so we were looking for a space to have our chapter meetings and we found this great restaurant. It was really wonderful.
We had our own little room and it was quiet. There was only one problem. There were stairs, two of them only, but two stairs can be like a mountain to somebody who can't get up those stairs. And so we were not able to meet at that place, even though the owner tried a portable ramp, but that didn't work. And so I think that accessibility policy has made us aware that we need to be mindful that not everyone that's coming to us is just blind.
They could have some other issues. Now, I will also say that we do need, sometimes we may need you to tell us what it is you need. That's what the Americans with Disabilities Act is based on. And I would say that's what the Federation is based on, is you letting us know what you need.
I know that last year at our Washington Seminar, I wasn't able to be at the seminar, but I'm told that one of the people who went was not as sure with walking and traveling as you might think as far as walking through the halls of Congress and getting to the different meetings, quick fast and in a hurry the way we do, getting off Capitol Hill and getting back, it would take them a little more time. I really was not aware of that. Had I known, I might've tried to schedule something a little different for that person.
And so we really, if there's something that you need, we're not asking you to disvulge your entire medical condition, but at least let us know so that we can make arrangements. We as a f=Federation, again, we have the DeafBlind Division and we now are starting to get the devices so that if people have trouble hearing during the meetings, we're able to get that to them. So these are things that we really are working on as an organization. So if that's been, if you had a bad experience, if you came to us once and you didn't find that we met your needs, give us another chance and tell us what you need so that we can see what we can do. Chances I will be able to meet you where you are.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah, give us a little grace. I know that we had a chapter meeting where there was a young lady with significant hearing loss and being careful that what you ask for may not necessarily be what we're able to provide, but we're going to be there to assist you. She was asking that the chapter secure the services of voice interpreters, which are individuals that sit near you and will repeat it so you can hear it. But that was pretty expensive undertaking.
You need two interpreters and they're usually around 70, 80 dollars an hour. So what they did was they just got volunteer members to be there and be that voice interpreter and repeat that. So asking for the voice interpreter may not be the solution, but we'll work with you to see if we can meet that need, make that accommodation. I also think it's important to recognize that we as an organization, we profess and really know that we're experts in blindness.
We're not experts in every other disability, but we recognize that blindness, members of the organization, we're a subset of society, so we're going to run into individuals with developmental delays that are blind and etc. So when we're putting together our programming, a lot of individuals want us to be experts in those cross-disability areas. We may not know how to meet the needs of a person with another specific disability, but we're definitely willing to try to find organizations similar to the NFB.
If there's a developmental disability, then let us try to coordinate with an organization that knows how to best meet the needs of someone with a developmental disability, placing the expectation on us to do that. And I know that we have a lot of people with big hearts that will try, but it may not create the best experience for that individual. So recognizing that we need a little grace too in order to make sure that we can be as welcoming as possible, but we are very willing to work together with other organizations to meet the need of everyone who wants to be part of the National Federation of the Blind.
Melissa Riccobono:
I love what you said about going and getting expertise from other, and then providing our expertise too. So if it's a developmental disability caseworker who can attend things with their client or their consumer, then maybe we provide, okay, here's what we're thinking of doing in this program and maybe we point out, "Hey, part of this program is really trying to teach somebody to gain such and such a skill. And we believe that this person would be able to gain this skill. They just need this type of support. So have you ever thought of giving the support this way?" And that's really what the cooperation looks like and can look like. So that's really good.
Anil Lewis:
Wow. We packed a lot in this little box of a podcast today (Melissa laughs). Anybody have anything to close on this now that everybody knows that the NFB expects you to be perfect in every way (Melissa and Denise laugh)? Just like, well, who's practically perfect in every way? Who is that?
Melissa Riccobono:
Mary Poppins.
Anil Lewis:
Mary Poppins, that's right. Spoonful of sugar. Anyone?
Melissa Riccobono:
I would say that number one, read the "Nature of Independence" and number two, really ask, have the conversation. If you feel like you've been dismissed or something has happened where you feel like your choices were belittled, have a conversation with maybe another member, maybe the person who talked to you. I don't know. I think it just depends on what exactly took place, but I think communication is always so much better than just assuming. And I think giving each other grace, none of us are perfect.
We're all just trying to help each other be all that we can be and have high expectations because low expectations are really those things that create obstacles between blind people and our dreams. And we want blind people to be able to dream and to be able to have opportunities. And so I guess that's my thing, just communicate, ask questions, keep looking for answers, keep exploring, and give us some grace, but also let us know. Let us know what you need or let us know when something really didn't work out well, because we really can't fix things if we don't know what's wrong or what you feel is wrong.
Anil Lewis:
Yeah. The only advice I would offer is don't make a decision about a whole organization based on a limited exposure.
Denise Avant:
One person.
Anil Lewis:
One, yeah, or even a small group of people, because they may have found their group of people who believe as they believe, which is well within the grounds of the Federation. But I guarantee you, there are other people within the Federation that also resonate with you where you are and how you feel and your perspective as well.
So don't do that. And one of the ways to do that is to get active, go to a chapter meeting, you get exposed to a lot of different people because that's the purpose of our chapters, to put those hands on hands and have people really interact with people. So I encourage you to explore the organization because it's more than just a conversation with one person or just a few people. But as was said earlier, I think Denise, you mentioned, go to a national convention. That's where you can see all of it, all of it.
Melissa Riccobono:
And even a state convention. And I would say too about chapters, if a chapter that's closest to you, you're just not clicking with them for some reason or they meet at a time that's not convenient for you, it's okay to go to another chapter as long as you can get there. Nothing says that you have to go to just this chapter. I mean, maybe the at large chapter is better for you for whatever reason, or maybe there's an evening chapter that's better. That's why we have a variety of chapters to try to make it so that people will enjoy coming to the meetings and really be able to get out of the chapter what they put into it.
Denise Avant:
Well, I just want to let people know, yes, some people, we have our moments when, especially times of frustration, but as you all have said, we ask those of you who have come to us and may not have had a good experience to afford us a little grace. We are also striving to be better so that when we as leaders meet you, we are able to properly welcome you and meet you where you are.
That's what we want to do when you come to our chapters. We want to provide it a safe and a comfortable space for you to come in and get to know members of the National Federation of the Blind. Some of the nicest people that I have known in this organization have been those who have very good blindness skills, but they've never once refused to help me and to show me how I can be better at what I'm trying to do as a blind person.
Anil Lewis:
And there you have it. I hope this has been helpful for individuals who for whatever reason have adopted a different perspective of the organization, but trust me, there is room for you and we welcome anyone who wants to be part of the Federation family to come join us and do the work of the Federation, creating opportunities for blind people. Until then, remember, you can live the life you want.
Denise Avant:
Blindness is not what holds you back.
Announcer:
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